1997 Civic Oil Viscosity

[RandomFact314]

The manual I downloaded online says go with 5w30, what do you guys think I should go with? Lower for MPG or stay with the 5w30? We never get below maybe 15 deg F at the coldest part of the year

[aporigine]

I would not go to a different viscosity. A 5W oil is plenty thin enough for winter starts in Dixie, so a 0W oil is not needed imo. It's the hot-viscosity number after the W that is of more interest. 8th-gen Honda engines are spec'd for 5W20 oils, but if i remember correctly, you like to operate at low rpm and high torque as befits a hypermiler. I would not go lighter than a W30 oil. In fact, there is some controversy (I don't know how solidly founded) about the adequacy of 20-weight in the later Honda engines being driven for performance, i.e. at higher revs where there is no question of the oil pressure being ample. As I haven't heard of any 25-weight oils...
My recommendation would be to go with a full-synthetic oil in 5W30 weight. The best synthetics, like Redline, Amsoil, Motul, have a lower viscosity than the corresponding regular oils while retaining film thickness and strength. This is the basis for their improved fuel economy in use. For stuff you can get at mall-wart, my pick would be Mobil 1. Mobil has been branding some semisynthetics, so make sure you're getting the full-ticket premium synthetic. The regular and semisynthetic oils tend to use hydrocracked petroleum stocks as the base. Not bad, but the viscosity index (how resistant the oil is to thinning with heat) is rather better with a full-synthetic PAO base stock. (poly-alpha-olefin, made from scratch and not by refining and modding a crude oil cut) The consequence of this is that the oil can meet 5W30 specs with a smaller proportion of viscosity modifiers (than in an equivalent-weight oil using mineral base stock), gel-like molecules that thicken hot oil but "fold up and disappear" in the cold. Because these molecules are long, they degrade under shear stress faster than the base stock, be it mineral, hydrocracked or full synthetic. Less viscosity modifier = good! (imo) I grant you that full synthetics are expensive - expect to pay $20 above regular motor oil for a 4-qt fill. But if you gain 0.5mpg over say 7000 miles of the oil's lifetime ... at these gas prices you've come out ahead. (smile)
cheers apo

[arcosine]

I have uses 5w20 and 0w20 for many tens of thousands of miles without problems in my saturn, 48 mpg.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by RandomFact314

The manual I downloaded online says go with 5w30, what do you guys think I should go with? Lower for MPG or stay with the 5w30? We never get below maybe 15 deg F at the coldest part of the year

I am running 5w30 in my 98 Civic in Southern California. I'm about ready to change my oil and go to 0w30, or even 20. But I don't think you should given you get freezing temps there. IMHO, that 15*F you talk about as a low is low enough. stick with the 5w30.

[jkv357]

One option is to try a 0W-30 oil like Mobil 1 in place of 5W-30. Not sure how it's figured exactly, but the claim is that the 0W-30 will flow easier than a 5W-30 - even when it's at 30-grade. It claims to meet all warranty requirements of the 5W.

Any time it's cold (15 is cold) the 0W will be a better choice than the 5W for reduce engine wear at start-up. Not sure if you'd actually see a mileage improvement with it (they claim up to 2% increase).

Going to 0W-20 Mobil 1 would probably give you the best MPG all around, if you feel comfortable running it over 30-grade.


Jay

[RandomFact314]

Originally Posted by aporigine

I would not go to a different viscosity. A 5W oil is plenty thin enough for winter starts in Dixie, so a 0W oil is not needed imo. It's the hot-viscosity number after the W that is of more interest. 8th-gen Honda engines are spec'd for 5W20 oils, but if i remember correctly, you like to operate at low rpm and high torque as befits a hypermiler. I would not go lighter than a W30 oil. In fact, there is some controversy (I don't know how solidly founded) about the adequacy of 20-weight in the later Honda engines being driven for performance, i.e. at higher revs where there is no question of the oil pressure being ample. As I haven't heard of any 25-weight oils...
My recommendation would be to go with a full-synthetic oil in 5W30 weight. The best synthetics, like Redline, Amsoil, Motul, have a lower viscosity than the corresponding regular oils while retaining film thickness and strength. This is the basis for their improved fuel economy in use. For stuff you can get at mall-wart, my pick would be Mobil 1. Mobil has been branding some semisynthetics, so make sure you're getting the full-ticket premium synthetic. The regular and semisynthetic oils tend to use hydrocracked petroleum stocks as the base. Not bad, but the viscosity index (how resistant the oil is to thinning with heat) is rather better with a full-synthetic PAO base stock. (poly-alpha-olefin, made from scratch and not by refining and modding a crude oil cut) The consequence of this is that the oil can meet 5W30 specs with a smaller proportion of viscosity modifiers (than in an equivalent-weight oil using mineral base stock), gel-like molecules that thicken hot oil but "fold up and disappear" in the cold. Because these molecules are long, they degrade under shear stress faster than the base stock, be it mineral, hydrocracked or full synthetic. Less viscosity modifier = good! (imo) I grant you that full synthetics are expensive - expect to pay $20 above regular motor oil for a 4-qt fill. But if you gain 0.5mpg over say 7000 miles of the oil's lifetime ... at these gas prices you've come out ahead. (smile)
cheers apo

Wow, what a beast.
For the last 2 cars Iv had iv used Penzoil Platinum full synthetic, You say I stay with that or should I go with one that says its for "High Mileage" cars?

And iv always wondered about that, what does the "High Mileage" oil have that normal sythetics with detergent not have? is it worth it? The civic has somewhere over 170k miles on it (probably around 200k)

[aporigine]

With Pennzoil Platinum we get hip-deep into the question "are group 3 base oils synthetic?" Here I can only offer some objective info and a subjective opinion ... mine, of course!
Motor oils typically come from base fluids classed groups 1 through 5. Groups 1 through 3 are petroleum stock that has been more or less "severely refined" with such manipulations as distillation, hydrogenation and catalytic reforming (not a comprehensive list) used to improve the qualities of the base over the traditional "straight cut" (distilled and not much else) oil.
I steered well clear of Quaker State and Pennzoil "regular" oils. While they weren't bad as delivered, they used Pennsylvania crude cuts which developed a reputation for ferocious sludge formation. Poor oxidation resistance. I believe both brands use crude sourced elsewhere now for their regular oils, and the sludge problem is no worse than with other good brands of "dino" (petroleum) oils.
The premium synthetic andor semisynthetic oils from these firms are something different and better.
The USA is unique in that we can call a group 3 oil "synthetic", since arguably hydrocracking changes both the saturation level and the backbone structure of an unspecified percentage of the oil's component molecules. Imo this does violence to the term "synthetic". That said, the best Group 3s are outstanding lubricants, *almost* as good as group 4. Those are PAOs, poly-alpha-olefins, wherein every molecule (forgiving impurities...) is built up using actual synthetic chemistry. Group 5 are the esters. In ordinary usage, I cannot imagine an obvious quality difference between a top group 3-based oil and its group 4/5 kin. I found the following on the Internet, so obviously caveat lurkor ...

Pennzoil Platinum, despite its Full-Synthetic ad copy, is largely a group 3 base. This can be winkled out from two key properties: viscosity index (a measure of how little the oil's thickness changes from cold to hot. High numbers are good) and pour point. In the 5W-30 weight, VI is 169, a very good number. Pour point is -39 degrees C, typical of the top tier of crude-based group 3.

Mobil 1, same weight, is largely group 4 PAO. Its numbers are 165 and -65 deg C. Additional factette: M1 5W-30 needs no viscosity improvers (those long gelatinous shear-sensitive molecules that allow formulation of wide weight ranges) to achieve 5W-30 spec. I could not find an equivalent statement for Pennzoil Pt, but I'd wager a similar no-or-low viscosity improver situation applies.
Objectively: six of these and half a dozen of the other.

Regarding "high mileage" formulas, my gut call is: Unless you have a proven need, fuhgeddaboudit. High-mileage oils have an additive package designed to find and plug small or slow leaks. While this is a lovely thing for engines that are starting to burn oil, seep out of their seals etc., that same add pkg is unnecessary in a sound engine and *imo* interferes with an oil's highest mission: to be as slippery as possible while providing adequate wide-spectrum engine protection. On a '70s US-made engine, 75000 miles was advanced middle age. On a well-treated Honda from the last 15 years, 75000 miles is younger'n Angelina. The high-mileage formulae are there for customers whose protection, seal restoration ... needs are "beyond the adequate".

Finally a bit of opinion. Given the choice between group 3 and group 4, I will choose group 4. The synthetic base is slipperier than a refined-crude base which will contain some small proportion of waxes etc. that are not ideal lubricants. Also, group 4 has somewhat better stability against heat and oxidation. The difference is small, but as a hypermiler I will reach for tiny differences, then rabidly defend my choice as Morally Imperative. (giggling, ducking) But what really tips my opinion is that group 3 oils are synthetic NOT from the perspective of chemists (my former profession, although I was not a petroleum chemist, didn't play one on TV, or stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but from the perspective of attorneys. I could spin a diatribe on this subject spanning hundreds of thirteen-dollar words ... but I will limit myself to just one: Harrumph.

Please don't feed the attorneys...

If you've bravely and staunchly made it this far, I'll close by saying that the top oils, regardless of manufacturer and that entity's ad copy (Amsoil uses PAOs and we're the best! Redline uses esters and we're the best! We're Mobil, and there's all the rest!) use varying amounts of groups 3, 4 and 5 in their products. They all contain some polished dino group 3, if only the 10% or so used as a carrier for the additive package that oils NEED to meed, say, API specs. They typically contain a high proportion of PAO. They all contain some esters for their solvent power and seal-conditioning properties. They're all excellent products so long as you observe sane oil change intervals, use a new good-quality filter at each change, avoid gimmicks such as oils containing suspended solids (Slippery-Sixty (tm) comes to mind...) or super oil additive boosters (made strictly from 100% organic free-range snakes). Use Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 and go in peace, my son.

cheers apo

(edit) Wups. I just saw the mileage on your Civic. The high-mileage formula might be for you, but it seems to me cars did just fine before such formulations came out. If your engine's health, as determined by oil use, seal tighness and compression/leakdown, is tops, no need. Jmho.

[SentraSE-R]

FWIW, Toyota put out a TSB when it went to 5W-20W oil in its 2007 engines and certain 2006 engines. The TSB did NOT recommend the lower viscosity oils in older Toyota engines. I think newer Toyota engines are built with tighter main bearing tolerances.

For that reason alone, I believe the OP should stick with the oil viscosity recommended by Honda when his car was built.

[RandomFact314]

Originally Posted by aporigine

With Pennzoil Platinum we get hip-deep into the question "are group 3 base oils synthetic?" Here I can only offer some objective info and a subjective opinion ... mine, of course!
Motor oils typically come from base fluids classed groups 1 through 5. Groups 1 through 3 are petroleum stock that has been more or less "severely refined" with such manipulations as distillation, hydrogenation and catalytic reforming (not a comprehensive list) used to improve the qualities of the base over the traditional "straight cut" (distilled and not much else) oil.
I steered well clear of Quaker State and Pennzoil "regular" oils. While they weren't bad as delivered, they used Pennsylvania crude cuts which developed a reputation for ferocious sludge formation. Poor oxidation resistance. I believe both brands use crude sourced elsewhere now for their regular oils, and the sludge problem is no worse than with other good brands of "dino" (petroleum) oils.
The premium synthetic andor semisynthetic oils from these firms are something different and better.
The USA is unique in that we can call a group 3 oil "synthetic", since arguably hydrocracking changes both the saturation level and the backbone structure of an unspecified percentage of the oil's component molecules. Imo this does violence to the term "synthetic". That said, the best Group 3s are outstanding lubricants, *almost* as good as group 4. Those are PAOs, poly-alpha-olefins, wherein every molecule (forgiving impurities...) is built up using actual synthetic chemistry. Group 5 are the esters. In ordinary usage, I cannot imagine an obvious quality difference between a top group 3-based oil and its group 4/5 kin. I found the following on the Internet, so obviously caveat lurkor ...

Pennzoil Platinum, despite its Full-Synthetic ad copy, is largely a group 3 base. This can be winkled out from two key properties: viscosity index (a measure of how little the oil's thickness changes from cold to hot. High numbers are good) and pour point. In the 5W-30 weight, VI is 169, a very good number. Pour point is -39 degrees C, typical of the top tier of crude-based group 3.

Mobil 1, same weight, is largely group 4 PAO. Its numbers are 165 and -65 deg C. Additional factette: M1 5W-30 needs no viscosity improvers (those long gelatinous shear-sensitive molecules that allow formulation of wide weight ranges) to achieve 5W-30 spec. I could not find an equivalent statement for Pennzoil Pt, but I'd wager a similar no-or-low viscosity improver situation applies.
Objectively: six of these and half a dozen of the other.

Regarding "high mileage" formulas, my gut call is: Unless you have a proven need, fuhgeddaboudit. High-mileage oils have an additive package designed to find and plug small or slow leaks. While this is a lovely thing for engines that are starting to burn oil, seep out of their seals etc., that same add pkg is unnecessary in a sound engine and *imo* interferes with an oil's highest mission: to be as slippery as possible while providing adequate wide-spectrum engine protection. On a '70s US-made engine, 75000 miles was advanced middle age. On a well-treated Honda from the last 15 years, 75000 miles is younger'n Angelina. The high-mileage formulae are there for customers whose protection, seal restoration ... needs are "beyond the adequate".

Finally a bit of opinion. Given the choice between group 3 and group 4, I will choose group 4. The synthetic base is slipperier than a refined-crude base which will contain some small proportion of waxes etc. that are not ideal lubricants. Also, group 4 has somewhat better stability against heat and oxidation. The difference is small, but as a hypermiler I will reach for tiny differences, then rabidly defend my choice as Morally Imperative. (giggling, ducking) But what really tips my opinion is that group 3 oils are synthetic NOT from the perspective of chemists (my former profession, although I was not a petroleum chemist, didn't play one on TV, or stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but from the perspective of attorneys. I could spin a diatribe on this subject spanning hundreds of thirteen-dollar words ... but I will limit myself to just one: Harrumph.

Please don't feed the attorneys...

If you've bravely and staunchly made it this far, I'll close by saying that the top oils, regardless of manufacturer and that entity's ad copy (Amsoil uses PAOs and we're the best! Redline uses esters and we're the best! We're Mobil, and there's all the rest!) use varying amounts of groups 3, 4 and 5 in their products. They all contain some polished dino group 3, if only the 10% or so used as a carrier for the additive package that oils NEED to meed, say, API specs. They typically contain a high proportion of PAO. They all contain some esters for their solvent power and seal-conditioning properties. They're all excellent products so long as you observe sane oil change intervals, use a new good-quality filter at each change, avoid gimmicks such as oils containing suspended solids (Slippery-Sixty (tm) comes to mind...) or super oil additive boosters (made strictly from 100% organic free-range snakes). Use Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 and go in peace, my son.

cheers apo

(edit) Wups. I just saw the mileage on your Civic. The high-mileage formula might be for you, but it seems to me cars did just fine before such formulations came out. If your engine's health, as determined by oil use, seal tighness and compression/leakdown, is tops, no need. Jmho.

Phew.... I finally read it all
Yeah, as far as I know I dont have any leaks but I haven't had the car long enough to see really. But I think Ima just go with my good ol' Pennzoil Platinum 5W30, she has been treating my cars good for about 3ish years now. Or maybe when I get to the store i'll get something completely different just because I'm bored that day

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by jkv357

Not sure how it's figured exactly, but the claim is that the 0W-30 will flow easier than a 5W-30

Sure. It flows better when cold.
Warm performance is the same though (W30).

Any time it's cold (15 is cold) the 0W will be a better choice than the 5W for reduce engine wear at start-up. Not sure if you'd actually see a mileage improvement with it (they claim up to 2% increase).

It doesn't often get below 15F here either, but you don't need these cold temps to note the difference. It works just as well after a cold engine start.

Originally, my Volvo V50 used 5W30, then the dealership put in 0W30 in it.
It immediately ran quieter and smoother after start-up, so I stuck with it.

The V50 also runs smoother, quieter, and uses considerably less fuel after a cold start, compared to the loaner S40 on 5W30 I had for a few weeks - despite the loaner S40 doing about 10% better for overall FE !
(The V50 and S40 are technically the same, aside from the body shape and mirrors.)