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Old 10-06-2022, 05:15 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECO-AKJ View Post
One thing I haven't seen is the option of a Ford C-Max, I currently own a 2013 PHEV C-Max, it has been a great car, and the battery is still holding strong at 122K miles.

Paul (PTJONES) used to own a 2013 C-Max Hybrid (non-plug-in), and he put over 250k miles on his with original battery.

The battery in the C-Max is air-cooled.

Just my 2-cents.

I asked my mechanic about the C-maxes and he said Ford uses Toyota's hybrid technology so its solid tech.

Appreciate this info as the C-Max is something I would consider in the future.

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Old 10-06-2022, 05:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by broski499 View Post
I asked my mechanic about the C-maxes and he said Ford uses Toyota's hybrid technology so its solid tech.

Appreciate this info as the C-Max is something I would consider in the future.
Completely false.

Ford and Toyota developed completely independent systems; however, there turned out to be mutual patent infringement (mostly by Ford). They entered into a partial technology sharing agreement to resolve. Toyota actually adapted part of Ford's transaxle design in the Gen3 hybrids.

Ford had the brilliant idea to A/C cool their HV battery. Toyota only did this on one Lexus model.

Ford hybrids and Toyota hybrids have very similar hybrid systems. Fords are made by Ford. Toyotas are made by Toyota. Neither influences the quality or reliability of the other.

Both are reasonably reliable as an overall system.

Once you get away from NiMH HEV and start talking about PHEV, their technology diverges completely.

Base Ford reliability expectations on Fords.

Base Toyota reliability expectations on Toyotas.
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Old 10-07-2022, 11:12 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
Completely false.

Ford and Toyota developed completely independent systems; however, there turned out to be mutual patent infringement (mostly by Ford). They entered into a partial technology sharing agreement to resolve. Toyota actually adapted part of Ford's transaxle design in the Gen3 hybrids.

Ford had the brilliant idea to A/C cool their HV battery. Toyota only did this on one Lexus model.

Ford hybrids and Toyota hybrids have very similar hybrid systems. Fords are made by Ford. Toyotas are made by Toyota. Neither influences the quality or reliability of the other.

Both are reasonably reliable as an overall system.

Once you get away from NiMH HEV and start talking about PHEV, their technology diverges completely.

Base Ford reliability expectations on Fords.

Base Toyota reliability expectations on Toyotas.
That's hilarious. So similar tech, but not the same.

A/C cooling of the battery sounds like an amazing idea.
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Old 10-07-2022, 11:51 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by broski499 View Post
That's hilarious. So similar tech, but not the same.

A/C cooling of the battery sounds like an amazing idea.
It's truly amazing. The FEH uses the same Sanyo "D" cells that the 06-11 Honda Civic Hybrid uses. The FEH is one of the most reliable NiMH batteries ever made. The 09-11 HCH is the worst and the 06-08 is the second worst with outrageous failure rates. 09-11: 30% in the first 2-3 years. 06-08: 16% in the first 4-6 years.

Difference is the result of rear A/C cooling of the battery and very aggressive temperature management (battery temps typically run 80-90įF) where the HCH battery cooling is almost worse than no cooling at all - 132 hot spots and reliance on cabin air for cooling... and a very marginal cabin air cooling system.
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Old 10-07-2022, 03:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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It seems a local hybrid repair shop has a lithium ion option for second gen prius battery packs. Costs $3000 for battery and installation. Lipo comes with a 5 year warranty or 75,000 miles.

Their standard option is $1038 for a refurbished battery with at least 80% original capacity and a 1 year warranty. A 5 year warranty on the same battery is $2900 so essentially same price as the lipo.

https://acehybridgroup.com/product/2...-prius-hybrid/

A few other local options have packs as low as $600. This would be a refurbished pack made with blades pulled and balanced.

Electron offers the cylindrical battery packs. Anyone every gone this route? Pretty expensive.
https://electronhybridsolution.com/?...vpf-ymm-search

Hybrid2go offers reconditioned packs and a lifetime warranty options - although I've read some not so great reviews on actually making a claim on said warranty. https://hybrid2go.com/product/toyota...ion-2004-2009/ - $1300 for battery, additional $300 for lifetime warranty.
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Old 10-07-2022, 04:03 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broski499 View Post
It seems a local hybrid repair shop has a lithium ion option for second gen prius battery packs. Costs $3000 for battery and installation. Lipo comes with a 5 year warranty or 75,000 miles.

Their standard option is $1038 for a refurbished battery with at least 80% original capacity and a 1 year warranty. A 5 year warranty on the same battery is $2900 so essentially same price as the lipo.

https://acehybridgroup.com/product/2...-prius-hybrid/

A few other local options have packs as low as $600. This would be a refurbished pack made with blades pulled and balanced.

Electron offers the cylindrical battery packs. Anyone every gone this route? Pretty expensive.
https://electronhybridsolution.com/?...vpf-ymm-search

Hybrid2go offers reconditioned packs and a lifetime warranty options - although I've read some not so great reviews on actually making a claim on said warranty. https://hybrid2go.com/product/toyota...ion-2004-2009/ - $1300 for battery, additional $300 for lifetime warranty.
Lithium is likely the NexCell. A very poor implementation by any measure. Will be particularly unfavorable in warm climates.

The cylindrical cells are complete and total garbage. I ran a brand new one for two years, and it performed very poorly. IR values had a huge spread, and it "surged" when under heavy accel. Voltage would oscillate wildly, and it was very evident that the car was varying current in response to the voltage swings. Pulled it and put a frankenpack in it (left over jumble of modules of wildly varying performance characteristics), and it ran WAY better than the cylindrical pack.

Consider what I mentioned above concerning HCH cylindrical cell packs being the worst ever. Now do the following:

1) Change from Sanyo cells to brand-x Chinese
2) Take a marginal cooling system (prius) and completely disable it due to changes induced by the new kit geometry.

How improved over Honda do you expect that will be (negative infinity)?

These "kits" exist because the Hondas are dying out by attrition, and they are looking for places to market their junk.

Any reconditioned option means:
Get a pack.
Have a pack failure every 2 weeks to 2 years.
Get another pack.
Rinse and repeat.

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.
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Old 10-07-2022, 04:16 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
Lithium is likely the NexCell. A very poor implementation by any measure. Will be particularly unfavorable in warm climates.

The cylindrical cells are complete and total garbage. I ran a brand new one for two years, and it performed very poorly. IR values had a huge spread, and it "surged" when under heavy accel. Voltage would oscillate wildly, and it was very evident that the car was varying current in response to the voltage swings. Pulled it and put a frankenpack in it (left over jumble of modules of wildly varying performance characteristics), and it ran WAY better than the cylindrical pack.

Consider what I mentioned above concerning HCH cylindrical cell packs being the worst ever. Now do the following:

1) Change from Sanyo cells to brand-x Chinese
2) Take a marginal cooling system (prius) and completely disable it due to changes induced by the new kit geometry.

How improved over Honda do you expect that will be (negative infinity)?

These "kits" exist because the Hondas are dying out by attrition, and they are looking for places to market their junk.

Any reconditioned option means:
Get a pack.
Have a pack failure every 2 weeks to 2 years.
Get another pack.
Rinse and repeat.

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.
Thanks for all this. Very helpful.

What about a battery pack that has all new cells, but the shell is refurbished.

https://hybriddrivebatteries.com/toy...iles-new-cells

$1700 3 year /40,000 mile warranty.

https://hybriddrivebatteries.com/toy...iles-new-cells
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Old 10-07-2022, 04:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broski499 View Post
Thanks for all this. Very helpful.

What about a battery pack that has all new cells, but the shell is refurbished.

https://hybriddrivebatteries.com/toy...iles-new-cells

$1700 3 year /40,000 mile warranty.

https://hybriddrivebatteries.com/toy...iles-new-cells
You might have missed it...

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


1) they'd have to prove to me that it's not the cylindrical cell kit.
2) there are "grey market" prismatic modules made in China based on the Gen1 design.

I have two. Again, they're junk just like the "D" cells - just a different wrapper.

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


This is my conclusion based on 500+ hybrid battery replacements.
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Old 10-07-2022, 04:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
You might have missed it...

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


1) they'd have to prove to me that it's not the cylindrical cell kit.
2) there are "grey market" prismatic modules made in China based on the Gen1 design.

I have two. Again, they're junk just like the "D" cells - just a different wrapper.

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


This is my conclusion based on 500+ hybrid battery replacements.
Correction. I have 6. I also have hundreds of used Toyota modules that haven't been touched for years. What's the point?

All of the Toyota modules are 7.3V or higher (14+ years old and > 100K miles).
All of the Chinese prismatic modules are 6.3-6.5V (never installed, 0 miles).
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Old 10-08-2022, 03:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
You might have missed it...

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


1) they'd have to prove to me that it's not the cylindrical cell kit.
2) there are "grey market" prismatic modules made in China based on the Gen1 design.

I have two. Again, they're junk just like the "D" cells - just a different wrapper.

Without question the best consumer VALUE is a new Toyota battery. It's not even close.


This is my conclusion based on 500+ hybrid battery replacements.
I asked them what kind of cells they used and they said 3rd party. Glad I asked you. Thatís pretty shiesty.

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