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Old 10-04-2022, 10:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Disagree about used PHEV and most EVs.

How much would a used Prius Prime cost factoring in subsidies? I'd be inclined to get something like that, especially if you already like the Prius. Most of the miles would be EV, with no range anxiety for other trips.

You've got a known headache coming in the next couple years with your current vehicle, or a newer one can give you a decade+ of no hassles.

By my estimation, the wealthy (or foolish) pay the most for transportation because they buy new. Then the poor pay the most since they buy bottom dollar vehicles and are constantly working on them (if they're handy), or scrapping them for another junk car. The middle is where it's at. A 3-6 year old vehicle.

The Gen V Prius is supposedly being released spring of 2023, so that might be an opportunity to snag a Gen IV at a good price. Maybe sell your vehicle now and bike your commute until then.

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Old 10-04-2022, 11:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Disagree about used PHEV and most EVs.

How much would a used Prius Prime cost factoring in subsidies? I'd be inclined to get something like that, especially if you already like the Prius. Most of the miles would be EV, with no range anxiety for other trips.

You've got a known headache coming in the next couple years with your current vehicle, or a newer one can give you a decade+ of no hassles.

By my estimation, the wealthy (or foolish) pay the most for transportation because they buy new. Then the poor pay the most since they buy bottom dollar vehicles and are constantly working on them (if they're handy), or scrapping them for another junk car. The middle is where it's at. A 3-6 year old vehicle.

The Gen V Prius is supposedly being released spring of 2023, so that might be an opportunity to snag a Gen IV at a good price. Maybe sell your vehicle now and bike your commute until then.
It's a matter of perspective.

I've personally met a couple hundred people crushed by unexpected maintenance on a Gen2/3 Prius, FEH, Kia/Hyundai, etc. I get lots of calls about Leafs, Volts and several Fusion Energi (PHEV). Most of these are after a short period of ownership because they bought used.

With what I've seen on Gen3 packs, I'll never own one. Toyota screwed a lot up on the Gen3. Doubt Gen4 is any better as they just keep squeezing more out of the same pack.

I understand that I'm only seeing the worst, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

As such my experience is well beyond my personal driving/owning. I've owned a total of 11 hybrids and every single one of them had a major maintenance event (battery or other).

Given the cost of a BEV/PHEV pack, I wouldn't be okay with it unless it was 1) Under substantial remaining warranty or
2) Purchase price + battery replacement $ = acceptable to me.
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Old 10-05-2022, 11:35 AM   #13 (permalink)
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It's a matter of perspective.

I've personally met a couple hundred people crushed by unexpected maintenance on a Gen2/3 Prius, FEH, Kia/Hyundai, etc. I get lots of calls about Leafs, Volts and several Fusion Energi (PHEV). Most of these are after a short period of ownership because they bought used.

With what I've seen on Gen3 packs, I'll never own one. Toyota screwed a lot up on the Gen3. Doubt Gen4 is any better as they just keep squeezing more out of the same pack.

I understand that I'm only seeing the worst, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

As such my experience is well beyond my personal driving/owning. I've owned a total of 11 hybrids and every single one of them had a major maintenance event (battery or other).

Given the cost of a BEV/PHEV pack, I wouldn't be okay with it unless it was 1) Under substantial remaining warranty or
2) Purchase price + battery replacement $ = acceptable to me.
Yeah this def rules out the leaf idea. Unless I can get it crazy cheap. The batteries are just so prone to massive degradation. Replacement is 8k minimum, more than the car would be worth.

You brought up a great point earlier about my current Prius still being pretty young especially when it comes to miles. Iíve had very few mechanical issues. The coolant pump failed when the car was still just under warranty, so that was lucky.

There are a lot of companies to choose from in the Southern California area when it comes to replacement battery packs. Anyone ever replaced a battery before? From what Iíve read I should avoid battery packs made of refurbished cells and just get one with new cells.
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Old 10-05-2022, 11:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Disagree about used PHEV and most EVs.

How much would a used Prius Prime cost factoring in subsidies? I'd be inclined to get something like that, especially if you already like the Prius. Most of the miles would be EV, with no range anxiety for other trips.

You've got a known headache coming in the next couple years with your current vehicle, or a newer one can give you a decade+ of no hassles.

By my estimation, the wealthy (or foolish) pay the most for transportation because they buy new. Then the poor pay the most since they buy bottom dollar vehicles and are constantly working on them (if they're handy), or scrapping them for another junk car. The middle is where it's at. A 3-6 year old vehicle.

The Gen V Prius is supposedly being released spring of 2023, so that might be an opportunity to snag a Gen IV at a good price. Maybe sell your vehicle now and bike your commute until then.
The Prius primes carry a hefty premium in my area. Hard to find any under 20k.

I agree with the sweet spot with used cars.

I wish I could bike to work. Biking infrastructure in my area isnít the best and itís more the OC drivers seem to have it out for bicyclists.

Iíll report back once I decide to buy a grid charger or once I get the pack replaced.
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Old 10-05-2022, 08:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah this def rules out the leaf idea. Unless I can get it crazy cheap. The batteries are just so prone to massive degradation. Replacement is 8k minimum, more than the car would be worth.

You brought up a great point earlier about my current Prius still being pretty young especially when it comes to miles. I’ve had very few mechanical issues. The coolant pump failed when the car was still just under warranty, so that was lucky.

There are a lot of companies to choose from in the Southern California area when it comes to replacement battery packs. Anyone ever replaced a battery before? From what I’ve read I should avoid battery packs made of refurbished cells and just get one with new cells.
Inverter coolant pump is the #1 Gen2 failure by a good measure. I just had one on my son's car last week. Wife's '08 failed at 70K miles. The '04 failed at about 120K and the '05 failed around 110K. I tell folks expect to go through 3-4 in 250K miles. More if you go aftermarket from the parts store.

As you explore choices, consider that not a single one of them will last 107K miles after 14 years. None. The only one that will have a chance of another 8 years/100K miles is Toyota new. Period. Feeling brave? Go buy your own for $1950 from the dealership.

You'll have to pay a $1500 core charge, but you'll get that back when you return your core.
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Old 10-05-2022, 09:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Holy smokes, $2k for a coolant pump?

My Dodge/Cummins was notorious for failing Carter fuel lift pumps. They'd die without any indication and put extra strain on the $2000 high pressure Bosch pump. Those junk pumps would sometimes not even go 40k miles. I replaced 2 at reduced cost since Dodge partially subsidized them, and then bought an aftermarket one for $150 and it's been solid ever since.

Is there any way to remanufacture a pump yourself to save the $2k? That's a worse problem than replacing a timing belt every 100k (which I realize the Prius doesn't have).
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Old 10-05-2022, 10:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Holy smokes, $2k for a coolant pump?

My Dodge/Cummins was notorious for failing Carter fuel lift pumps. They'd die without any indication and put extra strain on the $2000 high pressure Bosch pump. Those junk pumps would sometimes not even go 40k miles. I replaced 2 at reduced cost since Dodge partially subsidized them, and then bought an aftermarket one for $150 and it's been solid ever since.

Is there any way to remanufacture a pump yourself to save the $2k? That's a worse problem than replacing a timing belt every 100k (which I realize the Prius doesn't have).
Context: He was talking about choices for a replacement Battery pack. Gen2 battery list price is $1950.

Pumps are $150 list, but the dealership will happily charge you $500+ for 45 minutes of work.
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Old 10-06-2022, 01:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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One thing I haven't seen is the option of a Ford C-Max, I currently own a 2013 PHEV C-Max, it has been a great car, and the battery is still holding strong at 122K miles.

Paul (PTJONES) used to own a 2013 C-Max Hybrid (non-plug-in), and he put over 250k miles on his with original battery.

The battery in the C-Max is air-cooled.

Just my 2-cents.

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Old 10-06-2022, 01:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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One thing I haven't seen is the option of a Ford C-Max, I currently own a 2013 PHEV C-Max, it has been a great car, and the battery is still holding strong at 122K miles.

Paul (PTJONES) used to own a 2013 C-Max Hybrid (non-plug-in), and he put over 250k miles on his with original battery.

The battery in the C-Max is air-cooled.

Just my 2-cents.

What is your EV range compared to new?
What was Paul's EV range compared to new?

I can comment on these. I mentioned above the "Energi" models.

I own 7 of those packs (C-max and Fusion are identical) all sourced from salvage cars. The average SoH of the 7 is about 80% of rated. Only 3 of the miles were known, but all were under 70K miles. Given the ages of the packs, it's unlikely any had over 150K mi on them.

I have encountered a 2014 Fusion Energi with only 70K miles with only 7mi electric range due to battery degradation. Another 2014 with 220K and ~15 mi range but takes 2-3X longer to charge. I presume the battery management is reducing the charge current due to some parameter associated with degradation. This car was used for rideshare, and the driver was interested in maximizing economy and kept the interior cool with A/C.

Being air cooled, heat is a huge factor. In a mild climate, on a well maintained car, I would expect >80% SoH at 150K miles. Driving style also plays a big role. Babying it will reduce battery current and strain/deterioration, but driving it like an average driver will see notably more rapid degradation.
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Old 10-06-2022, 04:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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What is your EV range compared to new?
What was Paul's EV range compared to new?

I can comment on these. I mentioned above the "Energi" models.

I own 7 of those packs (C-max and Fusion are identical) all sourced from salvage cars. The average SoH of the 7 is about 80% of rated. Only 3 of the miles were known, but all were under 70K miles. Given the ages of the packs, it's unlikely any had over 150K mi on them.

I have encountered a 2014 Fusion Energi with only 70K miles with only 7mi electric range due to battery degradation. Another 2014 with 220K and ~15 mi range but takes 2-3X longer to charge. I presume the battery management is reducing the charge current due to some parameter associated with degradation. This car was used for rideshare, and the driver was interested in maximizing economy and kept the interior cool with A/C.

Being air cooled, heat is a huge factor. In a mild climate, on a well maintained car, I would expect >80% SoH at 150K miles. Driving style also plays a big role. Babying it will reduce battery current and strain/deterioration, but driving it like an average driver will see notably more rapid degradation.
I can't comment for Paul, however, mine is rated 19 Miles, I have seen 10 Miles at 0F, and if I run the engine on the highway a long time, when I charge back up, I have seen as high as 36 miles, but when I start to use ev only, it will drop faster than the mile per mile that I would like to see, as with full-EV cars, range will very depending on driving conditions.

I have owned my car for a little over 4 years and have put almost 93,000 miles on it.


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