2012 Vetter Fuel Economy Challenges

[Frank Lee]

Thank you Craig for all you do!

[sendler]

Almost all of the step through vehicles which lend themselves to a low seat height and feet forward position are CVT. The Kymco People 200i might be a good starting point.
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KYMCO People GT 200i Overview - KYMCO USA
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Or the Honda SH150i. Both have 16 inch wheels. I hope to have a new Honda PCX150 to play with by next week but it is barely 13 hp and has 14 inch wheels. It is super efficient though but it would need a gearing change to make it to 80 mph which is very inconvenient to accomplish on a CVT.
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2013 PCX150 Overview - Honda Powersports
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The Honda Rebel has a low seat height and is available used but is still carbureted and air cooled.
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If Honda wanted to start from scratch with the frame and bodywork to copy Craig's drawing, they could fit a small bore and detuned version of the current CBR engine and break 130 mpg at 100 mph right off the show room floor for $5500.

[Frank Lee]

That PCX is lovely- gonna mod it for the Vetter Challenge?

[sendler]

Probably not a full on streamliner but it will get an aero trunk and some mild panels in the back and something bigger for a windshield.

[cvetter]

These, in my opinion, are the important issues:

Comfort. Comfort is right at the top of my goals. We can quantify the number of bags of groceries but I don't know how to quantify "comfort". A tail enhances economy. But with the tail, it is awkward to throw your leg over to get on. A "Step thru" frame makes it easy... and comfortable to get on and off. A horizontal cylinder arrangement allows the engine to be under the seat... which allows a low seat. These are all a part of "comfort."

Various routes: Vetter Challenges are held on real roads around the US, the way we really ride. It turns out that there are great differences the way we really ride around the country. The Mid Ohio Summer ride was easy. The wet roads might have troubled novice riders. Had it been a downpour, I would have cancelled and rescheduled the ride. (I really don't like to ride in downpours.) The Fall Las Vegas to Barstow ride is very different. Much higher speeds over two mountain passes, with unpredictable winds. Maybe rain. Maybe snow. But it is the way thousands run back and froth to LA every weekend. I represents the way we really drive. If it was too awful, I would not hesitate to reschedule that ride, either.

Which brings up engine size: We already know that a liquid cooled 250 - about 16 hp - is adequate for the Las Vegas to Barstow Challenge. At Ohio, Ben Schloop's air cooled 185 proved it had the power for Ohio and sipped fuel to place 2nd. But would it be able to handle the conditions of Las Vegas to Barstow?

I don't think so. It might be a very expensive venture for Ben to try to find out.

What size then? My Helix may be at the minimum of the power needed. But these Vetter Challenges have proven to be very hard on it. Alan and Vic's 250 Ninjas seem to be able to run back and forth the US with no problems.

Maybe the best solution would be to put a Ninja 250 in a special-made scooter frame and live with a seat that allows the cylinder head to protrude between your legs. With a heat shield, of course.

More later...

Craig

[sendler]

I think right now, the best all around compromise on fuel efficiency, barely enough power, water cooled, 6 speed, fuel injected, 16 inch wheels, standard bike ergonomics even if the seat height isn't the lowest, not too expensive used price, ect, would be the pregen Honda CBR125R. one of those would make a sweet riding streamliner, like the Ninja, for the fast crowd that likes to run 80 mph all of the time, and start with a 25% FE advantage. It would have to be imported to the US from Canada though which might make California registration very tricky.

[cvetter]

Of course I think you are right about this bike. If I could get one legally in California, I would.

Anybody know how to do this?

Craig

[sendler]

Originally Posted by cvetter

Of course I think you are right about this bike. If I could get one legally in California, I would.

Anybody know how to do this?

Craig

I checked NY laws and it seems possible to get a title for a Canadian bike. There are people riding them on Florida tags where it is pretty easy to title them apparently. It just involves a simple physical safety inspection. I talked to one guy from Florida that brings bikes with no plates back and forth across the border on a trailer regularly who said he has never needed any official forms. The border guards asks "are those your bikes", he tells them "yup". Down the road. One Honda dealer in Wisconsin? brought 10 over for the showroom once a few years ago.
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How to register a CBR125 in US - Honda CBR125R Community Forum
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Honda had a blow out special price on 2011 left overs of the gorgeous new gen 125 last year. $3100!
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A 6'1 reviewer topped out at 75 mph.
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[euromodder]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

That PCX is lovely- gonna mod it for the Vetter Challenge?

Craig wore out two scooter / swingarm mounted engines on his streamliner.
That doesn't fit in with the reputation of these Honda engines.

Dunno in how many miles he did that, but to me it looks like an indication that this engine set-up is not the best option. Craig's Helix also gets beaten by its competitors, so it's not the most efficient set-up either.

The first-choice machine you want to ride is not the one where you have to worry about ruining the engine ...

Seems to me that regular, small displacement motorcycle engines do better, and better take the strain, whereas the scooter engine is overcharged in these conditions that don't really fit in with expected scooter use.


We also have a naked CB125cc - so no 'R - in Europe.
That might be even better to start with.

[sendler]

I tried to find info on the top speed of the SH150i but am finding only guestimates of 65 mph which would seem low as that scooter has 15.5 hp and an 8,500 rpm redline. Maybe it is electronically limited to 65 the way that the PCX125 was limited to 62. The PCX150 has 13 hp and no limiter and has several owners reporting gps verified top speeds in the 72 mph range.