a 50cc or electric mini car project?

[Christopher Jordan]

Originally Posted by ebacherville

however a recumbent riding position would eliminate lots of frontal area.. and at 30 wind resistance may not be a huge factor but could mean the difference of 30mph to 35mph with a small motor.

A faired scooter reall doesnt offer much more than a scooter in general , the tipping over factor and stability could be huge in bad weather.

I've been building low recumbent trikes since 1980, and built a velomobile in 2004 (rolling in 2005). Went from a large collection (7+) to 1 trike and 1 velomobile today. Society in general looks down (pun intended!) on most alternative transportation; so this was a very poor business venture throughout the years for me to persue (yes; was- I retired in 2003).

Although both have electric motors, micro-cars are still being shunned: even with over $4.50 gas in our area. Very puzzling!

[ebacherville]

i went and looked at hose 26" cart wheels from norther tool.. there very very tough durable wheels and light weight, they have a bearing in them with a 3/4" shaft and the outside diameter is about 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" the bearings are low speed but easily replaceable with higher quality bearings.. the hubs on these are tough steel and the spokes are massive.. they look perfect for wheels for this type of car..

They had some go kart stearing spindle assemblies there but they were not long enough to protrude through the wheel hub,(needed to be 1/2" longer) but I know online you can order ones that will work.. i found them on a go kart part site. there about $16 per side

These wheels impressed the hell out of me .. the odd thing was in the store they were $5 more each compared to online so i figured id order them.

The goal of this and 30mph set point is a starting point, id also like something that goes faster for the country roads, this the reason to use the honda (lafan) motors that have a gear box. makes for good acceleration and a higher top speed..

The California commuter is kind of exactly what I'm thinking but fully enclosed to all weather operation..

Ideally with these 26"wheels you would hang the frame below the axles for a low center of gravity.. really this vehicle is going to be no more than 8 foot long most likely and 6" of ground clearance would be more than enough.

And yes the tadpole type of design does lend its self to aerodynamics perfectly.

As for society looking down on micro cars.. who cares.. if i can build a car for under a grand that gets me 150mpg.. that allows me to commute and haul a few bags or groceries and or gear along with me.. who cares.. this isn't about making money or anything this is about personal mobility for as little as possible.

As for the safety factor, Id much rather drive a vehicle like the California commuter than a scooter or even my motor cycle to get that kind of MPG.. really motor cycles are very easy to miss on the road.. and not to mention they tip over in situations as posted above. and Id much rather drive a enclosed vehicle in the rain and cold weather than my motorcycle.. for comfort and safety reasons.

Really by looking at part prices hers a quick run down:

wheels and tires 3 @ $30 $90
50cc lifan (honda clone) 3 speed with electric start and reverse $260
Stearing spindle assemblies $40
sprocket for rear wheel and chain $30
Metal for frame (estimate) aluminum would be more $150
Pedals for gas and brakes $30
Foam board and fiberglass supplies for body $100
12v Battery for the electrical system (lawn tractor battery) $35
headlights and led tail lights $100
Plexiglas for windows and wind screen $70

brakes - didn't price this yet but figuring using good quality rim breaks for bicycles would be plenty of stopping power

And of course there will be bunches of other odd ball parts etc but this is a fair estimate of the major components.

[bryn]

i just crashed my honda rebel 250cc if i can't get the front end/frame straightened out. that would be a perfect donor. electric is all in tact battery starter/generator, turn signals, headlight, tail/brake lights.
the rear brakes, chain, sprockets, transmission rear suspension are already there. just build a front end and cockpit. it could be ready to go. i was able to hit 80mph top speed on the flat. even riding WOT all day i still got 70mpg. with just a little aeromoding i think you could do twice that at 50 mph. of course if i'm getting out the welder it would make a pretty good motor cycle again too. a good fairing might be less fun to build though

[ttoyoda]

Is the tail on that thing good for anything other then holding the 155mpg sticker?

Yes in the writeup they say it is there for visibility by other drivers, plus it has a headlight in it. Sort of like the original 1950s version of the movie "War of the Worlds". Boy that would be cool... someone on their cell phone cutting you off.. engage the ray.. Eieieieiei...KaBoom.

ebacherville,
It's up to you of course, but I would suggest motorcycle or moped wheels, something that has tires rated for highway use. Low speed cart wheels may have rubber tires that will not survive high speed heating and flexing, or possibly even the centrifugal forces of going 35 MPH. I don't think the steel wheel part of it is bad, neccesarily, but I worry about the tires. You would also want to be able to balance them.

Aluminium has one-third the stiffness of steel for the same cross section, just fyi. Also it is much more expensive right now, and you would have to TIG it. For the steel you could use your nice MIG setup. But maybe you already know all this Or you have a TIG in the garage and you have been holding out on us and not showing it in the pics.

As far as the height.. If you make it up higher sort of (but not as high as) the aptera, you would have the space to do much more drag reduction on the underside, you could make the bottom rounded like an aptera. When I first saw an aptera I though it was kinda strange, but when I though about how it could compete on the road with SUVs and minivans it made sense that they chose the shape they did. Here is somebody making a body shell out of a wing tank.. nice smooth low drag shape but you would need outriggers for the front wheels.

Mike Geokan's Bonneville Bullett

Up higher, you would also have a better chance of seeing over cars, as well as being seen. The "presence" of your vehicle on the road competing with other vehicles would be enhanced if you made a longer car, For example bring the tail out extended to a sharp point, instead of cut off. A longer car should not have much skin drag penalty, the speed is pretty low.

[Christopher Jordan]

Originally Posted by ttoyoda

how about a 3 wheeled VW body style
]

like so? Shrunken tadpole with a Harley!

[ebacherville]

yeah the aptera really makes sence to me.. tus why i suggested it .. its high enough but does raidse the center of gravity , but spacing out the front wheels can easly over come this issue... exactly what the aptera did they made the front really wide .. to make it very stable

[Peakster]

Wow there's some really gorgeous personal commuters on this thread.

Here's my 2 cents for a 'perfect' velomobile prototype:



Obviously the sharp edges would need to be rounded, however I think it would be a good start. I bet it would really cruise with skinny tires and a 49cc motor .

[skyl4rk]

Not to get off track of the trike idea, but here is a page about turning a Honda Helix into a streamliner.

Last Vetter Fairing

When I have asked around on forums about streamliners, there have been comments about sidewinds and getting pushed around in high winds. With a slow moped vehicle this is a deal killer because it could push me into a passing vehicle. I prefer riding a two wheeler but the problem of getting pushed by sidewinds makes me believe that the three wheeler is the superior design for this use.

[ttoyoda]

skyl4rk,
That is a great link. It shows a lot of techniques to make any body design easier to make up. The end result looks a lot better than the original scooter.
While they were at it, a center divider like a motorcycle has would let the driver grip the machine with their legs. A scooter with a chair seat (I only rode one once) makes me worry I am going to slide off the side if there is a bump or skid.

About the winds: The link says:

This was a good day for gusty winds.
But, I hardly felt them. At first, I thought there were no side winds. But there were. What I did notice first was:

No wind was coming from behind (which happens on touring fairings when the air tries to fill in the hole you just made) The wind cannot come in from the back because of the tail. No wind from the back is really good.

Bottom Line: Even with slab sides... assumed to be the "kiss of death" for side winds, side winds were not noticeable. I believe it is because the long tail steers the bike into the wind. I think the bike pivots around the rear wheel in gusts and is automatically self correcting.

[Christopher Jordan]

Originally Posted by Peakster

Obviously the sharp edges would need to be rounded, however I think it would be a good start. I bet it would really cruise with skinny tires and a 49cc motor .

This (hopefully, the photo will work today; did not last night) is a VeloKit. It has nearly paralell sides. I could not round it out much (just added 2 more panniers!)
nmm- exceeds, shrinked; worked, I think!