Aerodynamic baseline: Motorcycles.

[PeterS]

Pretty well the way I feel about it Frank, I can sit in the inside lane at 50mph if I want, tuck in behind some trundling RV. The are some conditions I don't go fast in.

[godscountry]

Yes,we could build a commuter vehicle right now that is safe,ultra efficient,fun and have the comfort of a Lexus.Picture a 4 wheel tilting motorcycle under a Monotracer type body,a single door for entry[push out hatch for safety] double the contact patch,double the braking.Its width would be increased very little,having no effect on its CD.It stands up by itself,no gyros[which may not be ready for prime time,though I wish Lit Motors the best]no out riggers[they work,but its not something for the masses,some people,lots would fail to deploy them]So here you have a vehicle that does it all,depending on the power plant,electric,turbo diesel,gas,etc could return incredible mileage with all the comfort,2 seats,space for groceries.Can you imagine the LA traffic,you could move faster than 20 mph,3 abreast with 1 person or 2.American would be exporting oil again.Any thoughts ?

[godscountry]

We could build this right now,all the hardware has been developed,many companies are capable of building the different components,would they,I doubt it.Most large manufactures are capable of building it,they too might not invest,why because just like electric vehicles,most manufactures are in the wait and see.They may offer one product,or have a concept vehicle,just in case their is a shift in the market.My hope is they are looking at streamlined vehicles,as a commuter vehicle or like Craig Vetter said,the first vehicle in your garage you always want to drive.I just hope other's embrace the technology,its a win win for all of us.

[renault_megane_dci]

Problem is it is a win for poor people and the people who do the economy or trends move are rich and they do so only because it would make them richer.
Also, we are very few to not indulge in "what is cool".
There is not a lot of black sheeps in the pack.
(being a black sheep also being a way to be cool anyway)

So, companies (or people) market products to make money. There are not a lot of people who would sacrifice the comfort of running with the pack to be eco-friendly wich in the end means small batch of said vehicle hence higher cost to build those.
So you end up with a vehicle that is almost as good as a Geo Metro conveniency wise, maybe more efficient FE wise and will cost fairly more.
I say this is not a good business (otherwise it would run already) unless there is a political willingness to make it run.
In Japan they have those Kei cars (small and less than 660 cm3), if it hasn't been a mandatory setup, you would never had seen one.

What we need is the politics indulge in long term strategy and create a concept that allow people to gain money out of their un-usual vehicles.

Like detax bicycles, electric cars, positive housing or whatever comes to mind.
(it's on its way in a number of countries already)
BUT we need them to go deeper in the concept and reward more the hardcore ecologist because they are a living add.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by renault_megane_dci

What we need is the politics indulge in long term strategy and create a concept that allow people to gain money out of their un-usual vehicles.

Money benefits is what the average Joe is always looking for. Going deeper on ecomoddings either to be "cool" or to "save the earth" is not exactly what draws more attention to it.

[renault_megane_dci]

A billion morrons are right (if it translates usefully in english)

The average Joe looks for what he needs most (maybe a little too short term but long term is a luxury) => money AKA way to fulfill fondamuntal needs and other needs made fundamental by the million "morrons"

[Grant-53]

There is a reason why Corollas are so popular-they offer the best value for money. The same is for 125cc in the equatorial countries. For us in North America and Europe an upright bike with a fairing and electric motor that can piggy back with a bus or train makes sense when it costs under $1000 USD. The break even mpg for a motorcycle and a car pool vehicle is currently 175 passenger miles per gallon. This is based on a five passenger car getting 35 mpg highway or a 7 passenger mini van getting 25 mpg. One can figure a cost of convenience based on their wage rate and the total trip time. A motorcycle definitely would reduce congestion for single passenger commutes. Even a motorized or streamlined bicycle can cruise at 25 mph for an hour.

[renault_megane_dci]

I quite didn't get the demonstration but I feel it is based on our current rate of living wich is not sustainable.
That being said, we can (must) use today's wealth to build tomorrow's sustainability.
And this brings us back to streamliners wich could allow for a ramping down of oil demand at the price of less convenience by today's standards.

[Grant-53]

Two things that limit automobile use are cost of operation and traffic density. Both affect the cost of convenience in time and money. More streamlining will be used to get the US fleet to the next CAFE of 56 mpg. Because more money will be spent on R&D and better materials the unit price of a small car will not come down. Comfort, reliability, and safety are the real selling points. Horsepower numbers are no longer as important as the feel of going from 30-60 mph in a rush. As more of us join the newly poorer, the aero commuter bike and trailer will get more use within the daily 25 mile radius. Aero motorcycles and trailers will get more attractive for longer trips up to 5 hours duration. The latest Craig Vetter attempt at streamlining, the electric motorcycle, has proven successful. The electric motorcycle still costs about double price of a 250cc bike. The Cd of such machines could be as low as 0.30 but no measurements have been published yet to my knowledge. The typical sport bike has a Cd of 0.60 because of the lack of a tail piece; such devices are still banned on race bikes.

[godscountry]

Originally Posted by Grant-53

Two things that limit automobile use are cost of operation and traffic density. Both affect the cost of convenience in time and money. More streamlining will be used to get the US fleet to the next CAFE of 56 mpg. Because more money will be spent on R&D and better materials the unit price of a small car will not come down. Comfort, reliability, and safety are the real selling points. Horsepower numbers are no longer as important as the feel of going from 30-60 mph in a rush. As more of us join the newly poorer, the aero commuter bike and trailer will get more use within the daily 25 mile radius. Aero motorcycles and trailers will get more attractive for longer trips up to 5 hours duration. The latest Craig Vetter attempt at streamlining, the electric motorcycle, has proven successful. The electric motorcycle still costs about double price of a 250cc bike. The Cd of such machines could be as low as 0.30 but no measurements have been published yet to my knowledge. The typical sport bike has a Cd of 0.60 because of the lack of a tail piece; such devices are still banned on race bikes.

Most of the streamlined motorcycles,combustion engine powered,double the MPG,the added weight of the body ,seems to have no effect.Motorcycles are not much better than a brick running down the highway.BMW built a couple of concept vehicles,the Simple and the Clever,the mechanical's were a failure[as far as safety]but the body design and interior were well thought out.The Simple had a 0.18 coefficient of drag.Take that body,add four wheeled tilting,small turbo diesel or gas engine or ? and you could easily travel 150-200 mpg USA 1-2 liters,per 100Km at highway speeds with 2 onboard in comfort.Narrow tilting eliminates gyro's[who's time may not be ready just yet,we have not seen the C-1 take a short drive at highway speeds as of yet] outriggers ?[forget and you fall over,caught on a gate post or ?]the 4 wheel tilting stands up by itself,it adds very little to the overall width,its by far the best solution right now.I'm hoping one of the many companies that are interested in this technology,takes the dive,if its done right,it surely will be a big success.A affordable vehicle,the looks good,[Monotracer with a door comes to mind as a nice design,BMW Simple design looks great]that is fun to drive,safe,and cheap to run.Can you imagine all the traveling you could do ?It may not ever happen ,but I refuse to let it go.