Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Aerodynamics
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-19-2013, 10:13 PM   #511 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Silly-Con Valley
Posts: 1,479
Thanks: 201
Thanked 262 Times in 199 Posts
Note that the curvature of a number of the mathematically-generated teardrop shapes is concave. I don't believe that's what we want, so that should place a limit on the "m".

Actually, it looks like the curvature may be convex at some point (close to the tail) for almost any value of m. Fortunately we don't usually take the boat-tail all the way to a point, so that's not a worry for us.

-soD

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 03-19-2013, 10:25 PM   #512 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 632
Thanks: 28
Thanked 148 Times in 116 Posts
Thanks for making me feel better, guys.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:11 PM   #513 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 632
Thanks: 28
Thanked 148 Times in 116 Posts
Here are the AST-II and the teardrop graph (m = 1) overlaid using Merge. Pretty close. I think the AST front end is blunted.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	teardrop and  AST-II merged.JPG
Views:	126
Size:	44.3 KB
ID:	12719  
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sgtlethargic For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-20-2013), HydroJim (03-23-2013), KamperBob (03-26-2013)
Old 03-19-2013, 11:16 PM   #514 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,549
Thanks: 8,091
Thanked 8,880 Times in 7,328 Posts
That's OK.

If you extend this idea any more yourself, you should consider a dedicated thread.

Like aerohead sez, this deprecates all previous Templates through mathematical rigor.

Here's the picture I did, that popped up in a thread I was reading:


This guy PRK is just all over the place.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 04:40 PM   #515 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
aerohead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sanger,Texas,U.S.A.
Posts: 16,267
Thanks: 24,392
Thanked 7,360 Times in 4,760 Posts
Drag of geometric bodies

I'm starting a thread-within-a-thread as the images to follow are all germane to the 'Template.'
It will take some time to get them all completed and posted,so please bear with me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm starting with what I feel is the most significant,the streamline bodies of revolution which in ground proximity,as 'half-bodies,show the highest potential as low drag forms.
They are all 'teardrops',and as you see from the table,their drag varies as a function of fineness-ratio,with highest drag matched,top and bottom;where the top is overwhelmed with surface skin friction,and bottom is overwhelmed by pressure drag.
The data was originally presented as a drag curve plot of frontal area Cd vs L/D.
The images are actually borrowed from 'section' profiles presented by C.J.Marchaj (of which he credits Sighard Hoerner for the quanta) and are not to be taken as 'templates',but only to illustrate the relationship of L/D to overall drag.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the research of Jaray,Prandtl,and Rumpler,any of these bodies would see 'double' the drag in close ground proximity,and in mirror-image ground reflection.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lowest Cd is associated with L/D= 2.1,although as a half-body in mirror-image,this body would violate boat tail tangent angles found to support attached boundary layer flow of 'bluff bodies' without artificial,power-induced stimulation.
Attached flow is absolutely essential to low drag.
An L/D=2.5 appears to be the minimum architecture which satisfies the requirement for complete attached flow and is the model for the Aerodynamic Streamlining Template.A 'teardrop' near the L/D= 2.5 appears fourth from the bottom of the table.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the 'templates' to be presented will have a 'sweet spot',just as with wing sections and struts,where the curves for surface skin friction and pressure drag cross to create the drag minimum.These 'minimums' are what we're most interested in.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Teardrops'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some ellipsoids of differing drag and also some assorted geometric bodies which were tested at the same ground clearance.The latter are presented at the fineness ratio of minimum drag,or,'sweet spots,'according to the research of R.Barth.
__________________
Photobucket album: http://s1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj622/aerohead2/

Last edited by aerohead; 04-13-2013 at 04:42 PM.. Reason: add ellipsoids and assorted geometric bodies in ground proximity
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to aerohead For This Useful Post:
freebeard (03-23-2013)
Old 03-23-2013, 06:09 PM   #516 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Thanks! Subscribed.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 06:50 PM   #517 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
3-Wheeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southern WI
Posts: 829

AlienMobile - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
90 day: 80.05 mpg (US)
Thanks: 101
Thanked 563 Times in 191 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtlethargic View Post
Why are there no comments on the Excel graphs?


After digging around for a mathematical solution to the posted equation by Mathematica, I came across a description of what is meant by "sin^m" listed above.

The math form below shows another way of handing the "sin^m", which is not solvable by normal means.



So now we had a way of properly solving the shape of a Tear Drop, and an excerpt is shown below. Here are the equations for X and Y:

X=COS(A10)
Y=SIN(A10)*SIN((A10/2)^$F$8)/$C$7

Where:
Increment = 0.1 (number of desired steps in shape)
A10 = cell A10
$C$7 = 1.925 (constant) used to create a shape with a 2.5:1 length/width ratio
$F$8 = M (constant)

And here is what the spreadsheet data looks like....



To solve for a shape where Y is positive, vary T from 0 to PI. To solve for a shape where Y is negative, vary T from PI to 2PI. In this case I am only interested in solving for Y in the positive state, so T is varied from 0 to PI.

Here is the original graph presented by SGT.

I'm not sure about the Y-axis units for this graph, as they do not give output of 2.5:1 for length/width.



The graph below however does indeed maintain AeroHead's 2.5:1 length/width ratio however. We have "two units" in the X-axis (-1 to +1) and one-half of the 0.8 units of width (0.4 units) shown. 2.0/0.8 = 2.5:1



SGT, thanks for posting your original graph of this shape, as it gave me the incentive to dig deeper for those who are math challenged, like myself.

Hope this helps, Jim.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	graph5.jpg
Views:	1365
Size:	22.3 KB
ID:	12730   Click image for larger version

Name:	graph4.jpg
Views:	1158
Size:	15.0 KB
ID:	12731   Click image for larger version

Name:	graph1.jpg
Views:	1365
Size:	62.5 KB
ID:	12732   Click image for larger version

Name:	graph2.jpg
Views:	1361
Size:	18.7 KB
ID:	12733   Click image for larger version

Name:	graph3.jpg
Views:	1332
Size:	21.0 KB
ID:	12734  


Last edited by 3-Wheeler; 03-24-2013 at 01:35 PM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to 3-Wheeler For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-30-2013), KamperBob (04-02-2013), Tesla (09-23-2013)
Old 03-30-2013, 04:05 AM   #518 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
betasniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: California
Posts: 79

Red - '01 Honda Insight CVT
Gen-1 Insights
House of Tudor
Team Honda
90 day: 59.17 mpg (US)

Civic Hybrid - '12 Honda Civic Hybrid
Team Honda

Bahamut - '18 Chevrolet Volt LT
Team Volt
Plug-in Hybrids
Thanks: 6
Thanked 48 Times in 23 Posts
Re-cleaned Template Outside curve only


Did this in about 2 hours. Straightened the Original template in solidworks, Made a spline, Exported spline into Paint.net, Texted, Angle Tested (off by about .5° on a couple angles), Done.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Aero Template.png
Views:	1414
Size:	12.9 KB
ID:	12797  
__________________

: Brothers
: Dad's
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to betasniper For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-30-2013), Fat Charlie (03-30-2013), KamperBob (04-02-2013)
Old 04-02-2013, 04:18 PM   #519 (permalink)
Recreation Engineer
 
KamperBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere USA
Posts: 525

Black Stallion - '02 Toyota Tundra 4WD xCab

Half Pint - '06 Yamaha XT225
Thanks: 333
Thanked 138 Times in 103 Posts
One peeve with Excel is I cannot find an option to force 1:1 aspect ratio between X and Y axes. (pout)
__________________
Recreation Engineer
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 04:20 PM   #520 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,549
Thanks: 8,091
Thanked 8,880 Times in 7,328 Posts
My problem is that in my head, Y is up-down and Z is nominally front-to-back. So I'm not sure I'm interpreting all this correctly. T=Z?

Anyway, the reason I'm bumping the thread is this YouTube video. It appears to show an unnamed Excel-SketchUp interface. There's no audio [in this browser in this location] and if I search on 'DST Manager' or 'Domain Specific Tool Manager' I hit dead ends.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maximum angle for boat tail? abcdpeterson Aerodynamics 80 11-03-2021 01:55 PM
Aerodynamic Streamlining Template Part-B aerohead Aerodynamics 8 05-31-2013 01:23 PM
LED Headlight captainslug DIY / How-to 82 11-15-2011 02:32 AM
Aerodynamic Streamlining Template: Part-A aerohead Aerodynamics 0 07-18-2009 03:37 PM
All items I scanned in the new product showcase dremd The Lounge 0 11-08-2008 05:14 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com