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Old 10-15-2021, 09:53 AM   #311 (permalink)
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Apthera 1 and 2 it's most of the same people.
Apthera would have been another solyndra had the loan or grants been approved.
Why do I say that, apthera 1 "ran out of money" and folded at the sight of competition; nissan leaf release, volt and prius back orders were getting caught up.
Lets say apthera 1 got 180 million dollars, and they tried to compete, they would have held on for several more years. During that time, a new hope, around 2014 gas prices finally started to decline a little, not good for hypothetical cash injected apthera. 2016 peak car, the big 5 strike back, all leaf, prius, volt orders were filled, tesla started to release dozens of cars per month and had like a 2 year wait list. Then 2017 tesla was releasing tens of thousands of cars per month, gas prices were at 7 year lows and the bottom fell out of the used leaf market, that's when I got my leaf. Not a good time to be apthera. 2018, $2 a gallon gas. 2019 more $2 gallon gas and nearly all tesla back orders filled. Had apthera been a real company they would have been finished or circling the drain.

Now they are back. There's high gas prices and a car shortage. Now assuming they get around the chip shortage since nothing is designed and they can use whatever is available and they are not chained to a certain chip foot print like most of the big 5, they might have a chance.

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Old 10-15-2021, 02:00 PM   #312 (permalink)
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Both Elon Musk and Mark Frohnmayer can attest that building a vehicle is hard but building the production facility is 10x as hard.

Both have succeeded where companies like Davis, Bricklin, Delorean and Dale did not. oil pan 4 might like the Dale story. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Motor_Car_Corporation It's got gender dysphoria and absconding of funds.
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Old 10-15-2021, 03:39 PM   #313 (permalink)
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If I'm not mistaken, delorean failed after he got arrested for drugs, the factory subsequently went away because he couldn't get funding after the bust. May or may not have something to do with being not profitable, or pariah
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:05 PM   #314 (permalink)
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I padded the list with four-wheelers. Add Tucker.

Davis tricycle:
Quote:
Despite raising $1.2 million through the sale of 350 dealerships, the Davis Motorcar Company failed to deliver cars to its prospective dealers or pay its employees promptly, and was ultimately sued by both groups. The company's assets were liquidated in order to pay back taxes, while Gary Davis himself was eventually convicted of fraud and grand theft and sentenced to two years at a "work farm" labor camp.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Divan

Dale reverse trike (70 MPG for $2K in 1974, the first gas shortfall)
Quote:
The company had already encountered legal troubles when California's Corporations Department ordered it to stop offering stock for public sale because it had no permit.[1]

Rumors of fraud began to emerge, followed by investigations by a TV reporter and some newspapers.[2] The California Corporation Commission began an investigation as well.[10] Although Clifft said he still believed in the project and said that he was promised $3 million in royalties once the Dale went into production, he only received $1,001, plus a $2,000 check, which bounced.[2] Carmichael went into hiding, and was featured in a 1989 episode of Unsolved Mysteries,[11] which detailed the fraud behind the Dale for which she was a wanted fugitive.[12] She was eventually found working in Dale, Texas, under the alias Katherine Elizabeth Johnson,[9] at a flower shop. She was arrested, extradited to California,[2] tried and sent to prison for eighteen months.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Motor_Car_Corporation
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Old 10-15-2021, 07:41 PM   #315 (permalink)
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Like I said before, give me comparisons, options, choices, pros and cons.

I get it, Aptera is corrupt because it didn't meet expectations. So don't buy one and hope they fold again. Right?

So if that's the determining factor, what company is worthy of buying a car?

Let's say Aptera finally comes out with a car. They claim their cheapest option will be $25,900 with a 250 mile range with a 25kWh battery so let's go with that. Say I'm an person who's interested in a car like the Aptera because 1) I like the side by side interior seating, 2) I live in an apartment and can only charge via a 15 amp, 120V outlet, or about 200 miles in 15 hours with the Aptera, even without solar. 3) I need at least 200 miles range.

So what would be the alternatives??? Let me help.

Nissan Leaf
For $27,400 I can get a 40kWh Leaf with a 149 mile range.
For $32,400 I can get a 62kWh Leaf with a 226 mile range.
The Leaf would make apartment charging off of 120V unfeasable for the most part. It would also cost more and have less range. Although we don't know how long Aptera batteries will last, with the Nissan we also have one of the worst degraging batteries in the industry, so might as well as look at those ranges as continuously getting down to 70% (104 and 158 miles respectively) before warranty battery replacements. If the Aptera Battery and waranty are similar, then the Aptera will often get as low as 175 miles at 70%.

Nissan has also had alleged financial misconduct with Carlos Gosen. It has also failed to meet expectations like making their out-of-waranty batteries cheaper, which have gone from some $5,000 to over $8,000 (for 24kWh batteries mind you) which has enfuriated many early adopters and has led some to believe that Leafs are for the most part a car designed to be disposed of after 8 years.

Tesla
Currently the Model 3 has a base price of $41,990, range of 263 miles and a 50kWh battery, which when plugged into a 120V outlet will get you half the miles for the same amount of time charging an Aptera. So like the Leaf, it's pretty much a given that this car is for someone who can also install an EVSE.

Tesla also has "future plans" for a $25,000 car or maybe even a $20,000 car (maybe Model 2) but we have no idea of what range or battery size it will have.

As far as the ethical comparison goes, Tesla has had it's fair share of unjust treatment. One of the most known is Tesla's terrible customer service. They've also been accused of giving permission to employees to stay home for a while due to COVID and then sending them termination noticies.

Chevy
The Bolt EV and EUV come in at $31,000 and $33,000 respectively, with ranges of 259 and 247 miles. Both come with a 65kWh battery, so EVSE or bust.

Not only has there been a lot of issues with the whole Bolt fires crisis, but many Bolt owners are fed up with GM's lack of communication. Many have no idea when or how their car will be fixed, and many who thought their car was fixed turned out to still go up in flames. Need I say any more?

PHEV's
So far we've discussed EV alternatives to the Aptera. All of them have had certain ethical problems too, making you have to choose your evil one way or the other if you want an "affordable" EV. They also have a much bigger need for an EVSE than the Aptera, so if you don't have a way of installing an EVSE and don't want to buy an Aptera but still want an EV experience, then a PHEV may be the only way to go. Here's a list of ones currently available in the USA for the same price of a Tesla or cheaper:
  • Hyundai IONIQ PHEV, $24,950
  • Toyota Prius Prime $27,100
  • Kia Niro PHEV $27,900
  • Mini Countryman SE PHEV $30,750
  • Ford Excape PHEV $33,075
  • Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV $34,595
  • Subaru Crosstrek PHEV $35,345
  • Toyota RAV4 Prime, $38,100
  • Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid $41,995

So if you were going for the Aptera for the $25,900 price, a Hyundai IONIQ PHEV or Toyota Prius Prime may be good alternatives. But I haven't the time to look up what ethical or moral problems these companies have been in to make as fair of a comparison to Aptera as possible. If you were wanting a full EV the news has lately been critisizing Toyota for it's anti-EV agenda. I don't know if Hyundai or Kia are any better, but that looks like the options.

There's also the Mazda Miata for around $27,000 if all you wanted was a two seater.

And I'm not including any non-enclosed or tandem seating vehicles as I do not think they can compare to an Aptera any more than a Harley Davidson could compare with a Mazda Miata.
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:38 PM   #316 (permalink)
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You've got a family. You already have superior vehicles to the Aptera because;

a. they exist
b. they are affordable
c. they can be refuelled quickly
d. they don't induce range anxiety
e. they have better utility

I've got nothing against Aptera, and I hope that all 7 people who are interested get one before they go bankrupt again.
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Old 10-15-2021, 09:10 PM   #317 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
a. they exist
So don't plan ahead? My vehicle is better than the 2023 model because the 2023 model doesn't exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
b. they are affordable
c. they can be refuelled quickly
d. they don't induce range anxiety
So in other words, if you're interested in an EV, don't even think about buying one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
e. they have better utility
So buy only SUV's and don't even think about ever owning a motorcycle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
all 7 people who are interested
There were allegedly 11,000 reservations in July of 2021.

I get that keeping your current vehicle forever has lots of advantages and that it's impossible to know what will be the best replacement when the time comes. But assuming that the vehicles we have today are the best there can be and will be the only selection available forever is also incorrect.
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Old 10-15-2021, 10:16 PM   #318 (permalink)
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Quote:
And I'm not including any non-enclosed or tandem seating vehicles as I do not think they can compare to an Aptera any more than a Harley Davidson could compare with a Mazda Miata.
That's Okay, the list is long enough anyway. I'd sort by Made In USA.

Around the time Aptera ship product, Arcimoto should upgrade the 'upper frame' with aluminum castings. Munro and Associates won't let them not. That will eliminate the headache of attaching doors to a round tube with a proper weather seal.
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Old 10-17-2021, 05:19 AM   #319 (permalink)
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We dont even know if there will be any 2023 cars. Bare shelves biden is only getting warmed up.
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:34 AM   #320 (permalink)
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Oil pan - you have a bad habit of dropping political references in your posts.

Please stop. All the old-timers around here know the forum rules.

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