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Old 08-14-2014, 04:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
Aero is irrelevant at city speeds
i used to think that too, but
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...rk-6441-2.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
...aero & rolling drag are pretty much equal at 30 mph/50 km/h....But even at just 20 mph, aero drag still represents 1/3 of the total....

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Old 08-15-2014, 03:25 AM   #22 (permalink)
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How did MetroMPG reach his conclusion? I'm sure there's an aero difference between a brickish SUV and a hatchback at 30 miles/hour, but a smooth sedan like a Civic and hatchback Prius would be virtually nothing. The weight would matter more (because of the stop-and-go pattern of city blocks).

For example the Volt that I tested:
It wasn't very aerodynamic, but still only used 5000 watts to maintain 30 miles/hour versus 50,000 every time I accelerated from a stop. A lightweight car like a smart would be about half that (which is why its EPA city score is nearly 40 mpg). IMHO weight matters more when you're constantly stopping & starting (wasting energy).
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:43 AM   #23 (permalink)
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http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...html#post78886
That's in reference to a steady speed. Of course how often you're braking and restarting could have a greater affect.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:44 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
For example the Volt that I tested:
It wasn't very aerodynamic, but still only used 5000 watts to maintain 30 miles/hour versus 50,000 every time I accelerated from a stop. A lightweight car like a smart would be about half that (which is why its EPA city score is nearly 40 mpg). IMHO weight matters more when you're constantly stopping & starting (wasting energy).
For a lighter car, I think aero is actually pretty important around the city. I always pulse and glide because it's wasteful to run the engine at 1500rpm when it could be idling at 680. However if your aero sucks and you respect speed limits and other drivers, then you'll be cycling your engine a lot because the difference in kinetic energy that your car has between 24 and 27mph (my pulse and glide points for 25mph limits) is tiny and gets eaten up really fast. Spinning up the engine over and over adds up; spinning the flywheel to 2000rpm or 3000rpm is like accelerating a 100lb weight up to 15-20mph or so.

On the freeway you can undershoot and overshoot the speed limit a little more without causing as much trouble because there's more space and people are less pissed off. For the same reason I think pumping your tires up a lot matters more around town than on the freeway, because the further you can roll without dropping too far below the speed limit the more often you can stay in neutral.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I guess ye live in unusual cities. I can only go two blocks at a time. It's the stops & starts that eat the most fuel for me.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:42 PM   #26 (permalink)
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How cold does it get there? I'd get a motor bike and keep the car for farther drives. A small 250cc sport bike or dual sport should be good for 60mpg easily... And the dual sports are like $3000 brand new.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltothewolf View Post
So I finally got a full time job way closer to home (5 mile commute each way instead of 38). Only problem is, it's not all city/highway, consisting of 2 stop signs and 7 stop lights. What are the best mods for cruising anywhere from 35-50mph? I got my VX tranny that's going in tomorrow, along with an alignment and new passenger side axle. I'm guessing that a kill switch is probably the next mod I should get on? I would like some input from you guys.

Current mods:
Mud flap delete.
Full upper grill block.
Front air dam (scrapes on everything LOL!).
44psi in all tires.


Also guys, I really want to find that black honda civic (I think it was a '01, or that generation) that someone posted here a while back, it had some form of kamback on it that went from the roof to the edge of the trunk, it looked so cool. I have searched using the search button, but can't remember where I saw it. It was right around the time that the Donkey CRX was discovered.
Was that JethroBodine's friend's car?
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:04 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
I thought they were $90..... at least that's how much Ford advertises as an addon for Fusion's engine.

Aero is irrelevant at city speeds, but stop/go is a killer because you use ~50000 watts to get moving & then waste the energy as heat when you brake.

I'd strip your car of rear seats, carpeting, sound-deadening materials attached to the hood. Go on a diet. Anything to shed 1000 pounds. Of course the ideal car would be one weighing less than 2000 pounds... like the aluminum insight.
$75 manufacturer add-on for an oil pan heater on a Chevy Sonic. Unfortunately I don't have anywhere at home to plug mine in, and nobody in the Midwest south of Minneapolis seems to have heard of them anymore, which is ridiculous, so I punted for now. I'll consider installing one on my next trip north. In SoCal, you'll want to be sparing with its use as you'll be starting from the kind of temperature where just minutes would be sufficient, as opposed to the several hours of heating you might need in 20-below Canadian border midwest weather. Accordingly, you might see if the lightest possible weight motor oil would be sufficient (see below).

First off, did you change your tires? I noticed when I did a little more looking into replacement tires for my own vehicle that the Michelin Defender that I recommended to you in an earlier thread only goes to 44psi; Goodyear's Assurance Fuel Max goes to 51, though does not have as high a tread life rating. If you have not already bought new tires, or if you are in a return period and don't like what you got, you might consider a high pressure LRR tire if your wheel rims allow for such a high pressure. Also LRR tires in general produce benefit even in city driving. Even some new econocars are not supplied with LRR tires -- in the case of one popular OEM tire, the Hankook Optimo H428, it's the opposite of LRR, a real fuel hog. When I was researching my Chevy Sonic, I came across a test in which testing the car rolling slowly with an H428 brought it coasting to a stop in HALF the distance compared to another popular tire -- not what you want for fuel efficiency.

On the subject of other mods, consider light synthetic engine oil (0w cold rating, whichever out of 20 or 30 for the boiling point viscosity the manufacturer recommends). Even at 75 degrees, 5w oil can be kind of syrupy on startup; 0w synthetic oil is not just for cold climates.

Perhaps you don't need to carry the spare for regular commuting, if you have breakdown coverage on your insurance, AAA membership, or some other kind of roadside assistance. Just keep a close eye on tires, and remove 40 to 50 pounds of deadweight.

Retuning the engine can also help. Both your vehicles are OBDII compatible. There are both performance and "eco" tunes out there from aftermarket suppliers that can be loaded into a car's computer through the OBDII port, and even for some vehicles tunes that have both a performance and an eco setting. For many vehicles there is Windows-compatible software to do your own tune (not for the inexperienced!), while a good mechanic that's into mods might also be able to help custom-tune for economy.

Talking of OBDII, instrumentation such as a Bluetooth OBDII transmitter that links to an Android app, a WiFi OBDII that links to an iPhone app, or a ScanGauge II, can really help improve driving skills by showing instant MPG consumption -- and also show essential information such as whether the coolant temperature is staying low enough for you to get away with cutting off more air flow through the engine compartment for aerodynamics.

That pretty much covers everything cheap and non structural that I can think of.

Last edited by shorebreeze; 08-15-2014 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 08-15-2014, 10:08 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemanspif View Post
A small 250cc sport bike or dual sport should be good for 60mpg easily...
Gotta agree with that. A 250cc motorcycle has a reasonable power for all-around use and is still relatively fuel-efficient. If my dad and my stepmother wouldn't freak out about it, I would consider to get a 250cc dual-sport.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:01 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebreeze View Post
$75 manufacturer add-on for an oil pan heater on a Chevy Sonic. Unfortunately I don't have anywhere at home to plug mine in, and nobody in the Midwest south of Minneapolis seems to have heard of them anymore, which is ridiculous, so I punted for now. I'll consider installing one on my next trip north. In SoCal, you'll want to be sparing with its use as you'll be starting from the kind of temperature where just minutes would be sufficient, as opposed to the several hours of heating you might need in 20-below Canadian border midwest weather. Accordingly, you might see if the lightest possible weight motor oil would be sufficient (see below).

First off, did you change your tires? I noticed when I did a little more looking into replacement tires for my own vehicle that the Michelin Defender that I recommended to you in an earlier thread only goes to 44psi; Goodyear's Assurance Fuel Max goes to 51, though does not have as high a tread life rating. If you have not already bought new tires, or if you are in a return period and don't like what you got, you might consider a high pressure LRR tire if your wheel rims allow for such a high pressure. Also LRR tires in general produce benefit even in city driving. Even some new econocars are not supplied with LRR tires -- in the case of one popular OEM tire, the Hankook Optimo H428, it's the opposite of LRR, a real fuel hog. When I was researching my Chevy Sonic, I came across a test in which testing the car rolling slowly with an H428 brought it coasting to a stop in HALF the distance compared to another popular tire -- not what you want for fuel efficiency.

On the subject of other mods, consider light synthetic engine oil (0w cold rating, whichever out of 20 or 30 for the boiling point viscosity the manufacturer recommends). Even at 75 degrees, 5w oil can be kind of syrupy on startup; 0w synthetic oil is not just for cold climates.

Perhaps you don't need to carry the spare for regular commuting, if you have breakdown coverage on your insurance, AAA membership, or some other kind of roadside assistance. Just keep a close eye on tires, and remove 40 to 50 pounds of deadweight.

Retuning the engine can also help. Both your vehicles are OBDII compatible. There are both performance and "eco" tunes out there from aftermarket suppliers that can be loaded into a car's computer through the OBDII port, and even for some vehicles tunes that have both a performance and an eco setting. For many vehicles there is Windows-compatible software to do your own tune (not for the inexperienced!), while a good mechanic that's into mods might also be able to help custom-tune for economy.

Talking of OBDII, instrumentation such as a Bluetooth OBDII transmitter that links to an Android app, a WiFi OBDII that links to an iPhone app, or a ScanGauge II, can really help improve driving skills by showing instant MPG consumption -- and also show essential information such as whether the coolant temperature is staying low enough for you to get away with cutting off more air flow through the engine compartment for aerodynamics.

That pretty much covers everything cheap and non structural that I can think of.
Thanks for all this info! I did not know that you could tune an ECU for economy. As for a OBD2 gauge I already have ultra-gauge. That's how I know my car isn't going into lean burn.

Also, a motorcycle is out of the question. Both the posts I work at you don't have anywhere to sit except in your car, and I really like charging my phone while I watch movies haha.

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