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Old 10-04-2017, 11:10 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
How much natural gas needs to be burned to power the conversion to gasoline?
Ever do a fractional distillation in science class? The more volatile (easily evaporated) chemicals boil off first, and the distinct petroleum products are separated. Turning all that liquid into a gas takes an enormous amount of energy.

It would be cool if we could separate the chemicals in a centrifuge instead, but there must be some reason it's not possible.

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Old 10-04-2017, 11:33 AM   #22 (permalink)
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It doesn't take as much energy as you would think.
Oil refineries have heat exchangers that cool the freshy distilled product and warm the incoming raw product.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Ineos power plant, to power Grangemouth refinery develops 145 MW. That's certainly more energy than I would have thought. And that is not a huge refinery.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:47 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Oil refineries rely on smooth steady operation the be safe and efficient. Thermal solar is not continuous.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The Grangemouth refinery, here in Scotland, was supposed to get it's electricity from their power station using shale oil from a locally licensed block, but because of the ban on fracking they have to import shale oil from the US.
The tankers arrive every few days, here on the Firth of Forth.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Oil refineries rely on smooth steady operation the be safe and efficient. Thermal solar is not continuous.
Very true, but solar COULD dramatically reduce the draw from other heat source(s), thus requiring the ħenergy input to come not from the sunlight, but rather from the energy source they CAN control, ie: a distillation version of hybrid, use one when you HAVE to and the other when you CAN.
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Spain has already demonstrated molten salt solar power generation that can go a minimum of 24 hours with no sunshine and 48+ with reduced sunshine. Utility level power, not just residential or light commercial.

A very common way to store energy is pump water up to a higher reservoir. This is done in some places just to save on power costs for their community. When power is cheaper (off-peak), water is pumped up (in the one I am familiar with) in the Delaware Water Gap to a reservoir that is higher up. When they need more electricity (and didn't want to build another power plant), the water is let flow down and turns turbines that generate the power to make up the difference. The area around this reservoir is parkland with trails and hiking paths...
That technique has been around a long time.
Also, as appliances and HVAC, in general, are getting less expensive (electricity wise), less power is needed.
People are making sure their homes are well insulated cuts down power
As for parking garage/lots. PV and Wind can help those lots generate power to charge the cars parked there.
If I owned apartment buildings, I would be covering any south facing or flat roofs with PV and/or hot water panels.
Price of PV panels seems to be getting very cheap, until you hear about how the cost of Wind generation has gotten so cheap, it competes with fossil and nuclear power without subsidies.
It is easier to predict the wind generation that the power usage levels, which is why the ability to use EV battery packs in cars connected to the grid to help offset sudden short peaks in power draw is something many grid utility operators want. It would save them so much money as now they have to have standbye power generation ready for those sudden peaks. If that could be handled by EV battery packs that are connected to the grid.
If businesses add power generation (PV and hot water panels), they save money, and surplus power sold to grid operator generates money. The roof of office buildings, work parking lots/garages, etc.
As vehicles (ICE or EV) get more efficient and safe, it will take less fuel (petroleum or electricy) and thus less demand on the Grid.

I think quick EV adoption is possible and the grid will be fine. Just my opinion though.

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Old 10-05-2017, 06:26 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I wouldn't worry too much about the vehicle to grid thing happening any time soon.
The problem with vehicle to grid is the new digital smart meters. The new digital dumb meters count any power flow they detect as consumption. So right there if you have a new digital dumb meter this not possible.
Then with the net meters they sell you power at the standard rate of say 10 to 15 cents per kwh, then allow you to sell your excess solar power back to the power company for anywhere from 1 to 3 cents per kwh. On top of that they charge you a lot more for net meter service.
So what are you going to do, buy a very expensive vehicle to grid 2 way charge system, add wear and tear on your battery so the power company can rip you off?
So the power companies them selves have made sure to prevent this from happening. They have made it clear they don't really want or need our help generating power.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:35 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Well, if I had the money and sunshine, I would do solar to battery and then charge my car from that battery.

My state just passed a law that will end net metering... but even at the $0.04 per kW, if it is in excess to what I can store and use while generating it, still better than getting nothing for it.

From what I have read and watched, not seen all home digital and smart meters work like that.

I am hoping some day to have a house built to my specifications... and besides lots of insulation, LED lights, radiant floor heating, and PV, hot water, & wind generation, it will also use passive solar techniques to help offset winter heating and summer cooling costs.

That combined with a large battery and insulated hot water tank, the house should produce more energy than I use. Then I will need to decide if connecting to the grid makes sense, but if I do, it will be mostly to sell my excess energy to the grid.

Yes, it would be great if our electrical grid was more of an open market and less a monopoly. I would just be happy to be using the lest polluting option for power and provide that kind of energy to the grid. It will only help the country and if a make a small amount, great.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:28 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Have you folks heard of the Sunamp Heat Battery?



It is a battery and a heat storage system, all in one.

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