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Old 11-06-2013, 09:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I just finished reading it. (I got my hands on an advance copy!)

It's really a good read. One of those recent histories that almost reads like a novel. Imagine a book version of WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR, only about the X-Prize.

I did a little review HERE.

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:46 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog 44 View Post
It comes down to there not being any funding from the Big 5, entrepreneurs
You don't really believe they'd fund a competitor ?
Or fund / build a design that'd compete with the low-end designs that they've already invested in - either existing or in the pipe-line ?

Quote:
A very long list of startups have failed because they couldn't get any money.
Stage 1 : Loremo had money.
Aptera had money.
Stage 2 : Both had running prototypes .
Stage 3 : Both decided they'd start on a next, improved version ... and ran out of $$$. Stage 4.

Unless you produce, you're not going to make any money.
Unless you're heading for production, the influx of money WILL dry up.

Venture / Risk capitalists want to see progress or returns, and stop supporting stagnant start-ups. They'll count their losses and move out rather than dump in more dosh. Better luck next time.

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Edison2 still survives while others don't because it hasn't fallen into those pit traps.
I'd like to be proven wrong, but I think different.

IMO , Edison2 is between stage 3 and 4. Heading for broke.


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The Xprize did what it intended to. It spurred the research and development of production capable high mpg cars.
In the US maybe.
In Europe we've had a - no, make that 2 ! - 3L car(s) since before the turn of the millennium.
[The latest but bigger Golf VII TDi 1.6L will just about match that fuel consumption.]

Vekke turned one into a 2L car - alone, unfunded, in 1.5 years.
His weight-savings (by stripping the car, the poor man's alternative to composites to prove the concept) can be matched or bettered by using composite materials (other than carbon fibre) instead of steel and glass.

VW raised the bar to 1L - and will actually produce the car, even if few will be able to buy one.



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NONE of the numerous contestants who entered had the capitol or infrastructure to mass produce a car. None of them. There are many production capable designs now, just no one to mass produce them.
How many had a finalised design ?
How would you build it if the design isn't finalised ?

All big car companies started making cars from scratch - in a period where cars were far from a commodity tool, with few takers who could afford one.
Put it on sale and see if it gets bought and can make you a profit.
Nothing different from today, really.


Ahhh well, I'm off to read the book
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Old 11-11-2013, 01:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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IMO , Edison2 is between stage 3 and 4. Heading for broke.
That opinion is only strengthened after reading Ingenious.

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VW raised the bar to 1L - and will actually produce the car, even if few will be able to buy one.
For those with wallets that aren't quite as stuffed, VW will produce the Twin up! - a TDi hybrid.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/08/v...twin-up-tokyo/

Makes you wonder why they won't make a TDi up! without all the fuss though ... in diesel operation it uses as much fuel as the 3L Lupo 15 years before it, partly due to having to haul about the batteries and electric engine.


Quote:
Ahhh well, I'm off to read the book
It's quite well written, feels like you're being up close to the action and the people.
Keeps you entertained and wanting to read on.

The glaring spelling errors detract a bit from it though.


But it leaves you with quite a depressing feeling when you reach the acknowledgements without anything substantial having come from the entire Automotive X-prize affair ...

IMO, simply nothing will come from it.

Only the E-tracer and LiIon really won.
You can buy the E-Tracer at a ridiculous price - think 82000 euro and above ... before any taxers, that's 110.000 USD .
About the price of a VW XL1 ...
It's NOT going to transform motoring, that's for sure.

Li-Ion ???
Anyone heard anything about them lately ?


The Loremo / Dino scenario is looming.
Dropping oil prices ain't going to help.
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Preston Tucker. Bucky Fuller. Teh perfect is the enemy of the good.

I will judge Edison2 a success if they ship their in-wheel suspension as an aftermarket part. I like Edison2 best because Oliver Kuttner gets a twinkle in his eye when he says 'motorsports'.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Well nothing good will come from arguing either way. So i'll agree to disagree.

LiIon's WaveII was available on their website last i checked. It looks like it hasn't progressed beyond the prototype, and none have been made or sold. They mostly sell conversions. I wouldn't bank on them ever selling the WaveII. They don't have a good reputation, and were in it only for the money.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Jason Fagone was on Wisconsin Public Radio yesterday on their afternoon talk magazine program.

You can listen to this 16 minute segment on WPR's web page.
Listen | Wisconsin Public Radio
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I finished reading Ingenious last week. It is very well written and edited - it feels like a book documentary, and it leaves you wanting more details. And I want to continue the conversation about all the various issues and concepts.

The X-Prize was far from perfect. I think they should have stayed FAR away from the detailed requirements, like a CAN bus, and a business plan, and the race in umpteen different places idea.

There are several people that I know of who would have loved to have been there, and we need to have a large variety of concepts and much more imaginative and innovative, and more exciting cars in the mix. If we had the Dolphin and The Zing! and as many more cars like that as we had conversions and tweaked Prii - then we would have gotten more out of the X-Prize.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:59 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Bump for a good thread & book. The following are my opinion, IMO, YMMV, etc.

Jason's book tells a story about who we are, what we can do, and what isn't getting done by those we trust. It's about making something that you believe in, that you believe matters and can make a difference. And within that story is another, about the truths the Xprize revealed.

Like my time at Xprize, I didn't want the book to end. Call me crazy, but I want the "Xprize story" to live on.

In a way, it is. Now it's "Xprize" for US automakers, but instead of 3 years to hit MPG/CO2 targets, they have 13 (EPA/NHTSA announced 2025 targets in 2012).

Xprize winners and many of the finalists embraced the truth -- to achieve high-MPG, basic vehicle architecture has to change; if you bolt new tech onto legacy architecture, you lose. This was perhaps the greatest truth to come out of the Xprize and one of the many reasons for reading this book.

Automakers are not embracing that truth. For mass-production, they're bolting new tech onto legacy architecture and convincing themselves they're not going to lose 2025. It's a delusion, and there's much to lose; you can't bolt the future onto the bones of the past and magically create affordable, high-MPG vehicles.

Some Ecomodders may disagree with that, but Xprize and this book reveal the harsh reality of tough, real-world driving cycles. There's a reason contenders with legacy OEM chassis were so easily vanquished, and why, beyond tech failures, those with previous efficiency victories fell like dominos. It's all in the book

These lessons and more came out of the Xprize. The Xprize changed how I see things. I swear sometimes I feel like the boy who sees dead people…LOL
skip 25 seconds in


In the new reality of mobile source CO2 regulation, people and automakers see only what they want to see; they don't know their cars are dead.

Every day, across the planet, people encase themselves in vehicular fossils, clueless that under the newest sweeping facade, the latest digital bling lie the bones of a refined relic from a bygone era -- decades-old suspension/chassis design -- a sarcophagus that will never take them, or automakers, to an affordable, high-MPG future.

The Xprize revealed that disturbing truth. The sooner we embrace it by re-designing vehicle architecture, refining our innovations and creating a new pedigree of affordable, hyper-efficient vehicles, the sooner we arrive at a more sustainable future.

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Old 12-03-2013, 01:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If it has any decent photos of the FourSight "4 seater insight" I would like to get the book since that has always been something I have wanted to create.
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The Xprize revealed that disturbing truth. The sooner we embrace it by re-designing vehicle architecture, refining our innovations and creating a new pedigree of affordable, hyper-efficient vehicles, the sooner we arrive at a more sustainable future.
Reality check : it WON'T happen anytime soon.
IMO, it won't happen at all.

Joe Average hardly wants to get into more sensibly sized Euro or Jap cars.

What makes you think the US consumer - yeah, some generalisation if there ever was one - will jump out of his monster truck / SUV and into that redesigned, cramped new architecture , or into rearward facing seats ?


Looking back, just about all start-ups that were about to bring the next radically new automotive breakthrough and coupled it with an equally radically new design, have failed miserably.


The traditional car shape has some serious advantages - hence it's no surprise that it came about.

There's also lots of unused improvement left in the traditional car.
Reducing weight being a no-brainer for the future - not the current miserable 10-60 kg, but more like 200-500 kg depending on car size.

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