BOOK: Ingenious: Behind the scenes of the Auto X-Prize.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by euromodder

Reality check : it WON'T happen anytime soon.
IMO, it won't happen at all.

Joe Average hardly wants to get into more sensibly sized Euro or Jap cars.

What makes you think the US consumer - yeah, some generalisation if there ever was one - will jump out of his monster truck / SUV and into that redesigned, cramped new architecture , or into rearward facing seats ?

What Joe average wants is taught to him and based on what he can afford, as soon as one or both changes there will be a lot of arm flailing, like the leaf haters or prior prius haters, after a while though it will slowly penetrate the market,
So long as the big auto makers don't offer alternative transport however the pace of change will continue to be very slow.

[user removed]

It's a shame we never got a chance to meet, especially since I live barely more than 2.5 hours away in Williamsburg Va. We pursued different pathways to the same goal. The difference is mine was focused on powertrains, based on the documents produced by the DOE, Ford and the University of Michigan as well as Eaton Corp. They predicted using a hydraulic hybrid configuration, you could realize an 80% increase in mileage without any modifications to the vehicle architecture other than a smaller diesel engine. They produced a 3800 pound prototype that got 80 MPG on the EPA test cycle, with no aero improvements whatsoever.

Any further improvements in powerplant or aerodynamics would be enhanced by a proper HH powertrain and the system could be easily and cost effectively incorporated into existing vehicle architecture which is the pathway the major mahufcturers will take, since their priorities are profits and survival.

They will wait for your innovation to age until they have to pay nothing for your designs. Then they will incorporate those designs into their vehicles over decades when they are convinced there are minimal liability concerns. They smash up more money than we will ever see just to pass crash testing standards.

My patent will expire in 14 years, but there will be a chain of patented improvements of the original design as well as operational software for integration into abs and traction control systems. As small developers who have not concentrated our innovations we will be rendered insignificant by the giant car manufacturers since they think long term over decades.

Nobody wants to even think about challenging the auto giants directly, but I think that attitude is short sighted since there are new arrivals to the manufacturing community who will be more interested in real design improvements. In the meantime I will build my own operational vehicle. I wish you luck in the future.

regards
Mech

[sheepdog 44]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

If it has any decent photos of the FourSight "4 seater insight" I would like to get the book since that has always been something I have wanted to create.

It doesn't. I've looked for it, and i've never seen a picture of it anywhere. Your best bet is to try to contact the people who (attempted?) to build it.

The book only has about 8 or so pictures which is unfortunate. How all those cars looked is as much a part of the story as anything. I would have like to have seen visual profile of all the teams.

In a way like others have said, the book really isn't about the Xprize at all. The Xprize is really just the context behind it.

I've had some thoughts that 'extreme' efficiency in itself isn't that important. But with electric cars, any aerodynamic efficiency means more range at less battery cost. The mainstream class required 100mpge with 200+ miles of range if i'm correct, which is why you had so many two seater electric vehicles make it to the end of the "side by side" class where they only had to do 100 miles or so. Batteries are really heavy for 200+ mile of range.

If you think electric cars are inevitable, the mainstream class was kind of like the diagram for the perfect electric car. People want 300 miles of range, 4 seats, at a low price. Thats the tipping point for average Joe to buy electric vs gas. For electric cars to become 'mainstream.'

Well batteries will get lighter while prices will lower and gas prices rise. But aerodynamic efficiency is a 2-3X factor of improvement than can be achieved NOW without waiting for batteries to mature.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

What Joe average wants is taught to him and based on what he can afford

That's the unavoidable conspiracy theorist's explanation

It's tough to advertise cheaper cars in a geographically huge market, especially when they sell in few quantities.
Car mags like the high powered, over-specced cars best - of course, their journalists don't pay for them, nor for the fuel.
It's not that much different over here.


There used to be a market in the US for Metros, civics, and the like, but it seems to have evaporated.
As a result you most often won't get the real fuel sipper versions - if a model is brought over at all - but you get the highest-powered versions instead which are of course, less efficient.

the leaf haters or prior prius haters

That's what I was saying - both cars look odd / different / plain $h!t€ , with the Leaf looking particularly odd & ugly (small wonder, as Nissan also has the Puke in its line-up) though not particularly über-efficient.
The Prius looks most normal of the 2 now, but the first and second Prius were ugly ducklings.

Put an ingenious drivetrain in a bad or odd looking car, and chances are HUGE it won't sell.

So long as the big auto makers don't offer alternative transport however the pace of change will continue to be very slow.

Why would they need to offer "alternative" transport if it won't sell ?
They are companies that want and need to make a buck to pay tens of thousands of employees.


@ only 3 USD a gallon, the incentive to get a fuel sipper is losing its appeal.

[user removed]

In 2003 I went to look at the then newer version of the Prius. I went to the parts department and asked then how much did the battery cost and how much was the electric motor.

$6k for the battery and $8k for the motor. Liked the car but a little short on front seat legroom for me. I bought a Scion XB for 10k less and averaged 36 MPG (auto).

I have heard about the new triple range cheap "miracle battery" for more than that decade ago investigation of the real hybrid that took them mainstream. The predictions, if you believed tham were that by this last year we would already have seen 500 miles range pure electric vehicles.

So progress in the field has stagnated while everyone waits for the "breakthrough" battery innovation. You would think that Nissan would be doing just about everything they could to incorporate any battery improvement into the Leaf, since they made a huge financial commitment to a BEV, but their range has not changed now in 3 years?

It's sad to see other areas of innovation put on hold while waiting for the great battery breakthrough and when (if) it comes in a few decades then the cost, reliability, and safety issues will drag it out for a few more decades.

Half of my 63 years, we've been waiting, while predicting it would be here decades ago.

Baloney.

regards
Mech

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by euromodder

Why would they need to offer "alternative" transport if it won't sell ?
They are companies that want and need to make a buck to pay tens of thousands of employees.


@ only 3 USD a gallon, the incentive to get a fuel sipper is losing its appeal.

The trouble is the market is "created", the prius for example made its own market over time. AKA It doesn't sell well today but tomorrow is anyones guess. So we are just being short sighted.

Also $3 a gallon fuel is ungodly expensive! When I start seeing gas get back down to pre recession levels ($1 a gallon) I will say that the price isn't a motivator anymore.

But you are correct, most nimrods see gas drop 10 cents for a few months junk their civic and buy a V10 dodge.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' has over 200 miles range, and so does Dave Cloud's Dolphin. And so does the Tesla Model S; even the 60kWh pack model. 'Seven' has just a ~33kWh pack, and so does the Dolphin.

Aerodynamic drag is the key to long range and high efficiency. The EV1 and the XL1 and the VLC all have world class low drag, and they are not surprisingly among the highest efficiency cars ever made. The Dolphin and Seven are right up there, too.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The trouble is the market is "created", the prius for example made its own market over time. AKA It doesn't sell well today but tomorrow is anyones guess. So we are just being short sighted.

Also $3 a gallon fuel is ungodly expensive! When I start seeing gas get back down to pre recession levels ($1 a gallon) I will say that the price isn't a motivator anymore.

But you are correct, most nimrods see gas drop 10 cents for a few months junk their civic and buy a V10 dodge.

I'm seeing this a ton in my area with fuel now at only $2.88 a gallon and dropping.

People are buying full size trucks and selling their fuel sipping commuter's.
There are some great deals on all the economy boxes in my area!!!

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by pgfpro

I'm seeing this a ton in my area with fuel now at only $2.88 a gallon and dropping.

People are buying full size trucks and selling their fuel sipping commuter's.
There are some great deals on all the economy boxes in my area!!!

I never could understand how people can possibly lack any type of short term memory, gas was $4 a gallon not long ago, went down; and price came back up and went down, therefor, THIS TIME its going to just keep going down?

This is why there needs "unfortunately" to be some sort of government motivation and some willpower by the people who should know better to do backhanded things to make economical vehicles have an edge.

I see the tax break, why not relaxed emissions if you meet a very high mpg standard (within reason) eliminate costly portions of the crash test that have nothing to do with the crash test (try to reduce/eliminate the cost to crash test low volume cars, eliminate the different transmission is a different car crap, etc) Eliminate certain gray market laws on cars that meet special criteria (wink wink) Eliminate the "origin" or "makeup" of parts laws on vehicles that meet certain criteria. In other words gut the million hoops written by lobbiests to isolate our auto market but only on cars that would move our energy use in a positive light (opposite of the Bush deregulation of large trucks)

Sadly the car companies basically dictate future legislation that affect them so I know this is moot but if an external interest were to bother the government enough we might see some of the crap relaxed or removed to make it easier to get revolutionary cars to market.

I know these types of changes would get backlash, we would get the car doesn't meet X standard arm flailing or someone thinking a few thousand economy cars will ruin the environment and the whole mantra of BS, the

canned answer would have to be,

you are allowed to drive a motorcycle but because only 2 cars were crash tested and passed the enclosed small car is obviously less safe than a motorcycle.

Shut up and don't buy it if you don't like it, says the guy with a Yugo, a comutacar and a Subaru 360

Cheers

[Frank Lee]

This ties in nicely with aerohead/gilkison's "high speed fuel saving" scheme; John is trying to convince me that they're taking the high-speed transit approach to aero promotion because it's a sexier thing to sell to the average Uhmerican than the fuel or money-saving aspect. I agree that Uhmericans pay lip service at best to saving fuel or money, no matter how "awful" the economy purportedly is.