BORPower additive?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

It claims to reduce friction.

It can only raise power by 10% if engines now waste at least 10% of their power to friction at WOT. Which is not the case for almost any engine.
It can only raise fuel efficiency by 15% if engines without it waste at least 15% to friction under light load. Don't think so.

Their claims are extraordinary, but there is no scientific proof for that.
They do provide an angry looking cat and a lot of boll power though.

Wikipedia makes no mention of boron in lubrication appliances, but boron is used in some abrasive materials. Hmmm. Something rhymes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The referenced research papers offered later here at BORPower all referred to the orthoboric products as a 'friction-modifier' (FM), added to some 'lubricant', whether, 'water', 'oil', 'grease', 'mineral oil', 'raw polyalphaolefin', metallocene polyalphaolefins, commercially-produced mineral oil-based motor oil,' or ' commercially-produced, synthetic motor oil.'
2) As a 2% improvement in fuel economy must be accompanied by a 10% reduction in engine parasitic friction, a claimed 15% improvement in fuel economy would necessitate a 75% reduction in 'friction.'
3) This magnitude of 'total' engine friction does not ever occur under any circumstances of 'Normal' vehicle operation, or fuel economy testing conditions related to EPA, NEDC, WLTC, or CLTC protocols.
4) The 'sliding' ( boundary friction ), and a portion of 'mixed-film' lubrication which could be affected by a reduction in 'friction coefficient' constitutes less than one-third of all friction, so, if 'boron' was attributed a 15% improvement in fuel economy, it would be required to reduce friction into 'negative friction' coefficients in order to overcome the 'hydrodynamic' friction which is unaffected by the coefficient of friction.( clearly 'snake oil' territory ).

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

A Boron compound is used in some oils as part of the detergent package.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, Boron-nitrogen has been used as an extreme-pressure ( E-P ) additive to commercial motor oils since at least the early 1970s.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

What Boric Acid does to metal wearing surfaces was a fortuitous find (IIRC) by Argonne National Labs, not some snake oil salesman.
(He prints money with impunity instead nowadays)

I'd post a link if I could... and if I thought it'd win out over ingrained opinions...

NB that Boric Oxide + Water = Boric Acid.
ie: What's sold as 'Boric Acid' isn't.
Its Boric Oxide till you add water.

Your engine will add the water to your oil for you if you have the patience.
That wont happen in a diff or gearbox.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Your task is to, explain how 'water' may be found in the motor oil of a test engine undergoing an ASTM, 196-hour run, at Wide-Open-Throttle, @ 3,000 rpm, with a 100-horsepower load, crankcase temperature of 150-C ( 302-F ), @ atmospheric pressure (where the boiling point of water is 100-C ( 212-F )); and combustion gases at the piston-ring/cylinder wall are 1600-F ( 871-C ) and the vaporization temperature of mineral-based motor oil is 475-F ( 246-C) and 'synthetic' @ 700-F ( 371-C ).

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

Hmmm... true-ish for a well run in engine.
But for a piston to change direction it has to stop.

Then even run in engines that are constant rpm and almost always running (like the genset on the farm I grew up on) become old and smokey and worn out.
Most engines are restarted often.

Bearing surfaces under a microscope are not as flat as we would like.
Well; not till you look at surfaces with the Boric Acid on therm.
(see the research pics: Dr Ari Erdemir of Agronne National labs initially and a vast amount of followup research buy other research institutes)

The very 1st layer of Boric on a metal surface is a ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond that forms an extremely inert protective layer on the metal surface.
Subsequent layers resemble platelets more and more as you move away from the surface. Like microscopic playing cards sliding over each other. (ionicly bonded)

At some point you will encounter an old smokey worn engine that's about to be redone anyway and give this a try aerohead.
I cant wait for that day!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Repeating myself:
1) Under 'Normal' driving conditions, from TDC to BDC, 'boundary lubrication', 'mixed-film lubrication, and 'hydrodynamic lubrication separate the piston and it's components from making any contact with the cylinder wall. Same for the camshafts lobes and valve lifters. The 'reciprocating motion' has no bearing on 'lubrication'.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) 'Constant rpm ' is not a condition of 'Normal' vehicle operation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) 'Surface dependence' of lubricants is not germane to 'Normal' vehicle operation. Any surface which is microscopically- 'Too-Flat', or 'Too-Smooth' will ultimately destroy the engine, as 'lubricity; cannot exist.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)
*The 'very 1st layer of Boric ( I'm guessing that you meant to say 'Boric-Oxide' on a metal surface' was NEVER created 'within' an engine. It WAS 'artificially-created' for the disk of an ASTM wear test machine by microwave sputtering, under vacuum in a laboratory at Arch Development Corporation though. Boric-Oxide was abandoned by Dr. Erdemir and associates due to its abrasive nature ( known to destroy machinery since reported in US PATENT # 3,313,727, by Peeler, 1973 )
* No 'ceramic' Boron layer was ever created 'inside' any engine tested.
* Any 'ceramic' material with 85% the hardness of 'diamond' would be 'cubic-Boron-Nitride'( c-BN ), manufactured by General Electric Abrasives, Inc.. In order to create c-BN within an engine would require a sealed engine with 68,9111,351- kPa pressure @ 1,700-C!
* 'Platelets' refer more to 'hexagonal-Boron-Nitride ( h-BN ), a white, very-soft substance commonly referred to as 'white-graphite'.
* Dr. Erdemir's 'platelets' were self-attracted by 'covalent bonding'.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

Yes it does:
1st layer is a ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond and complete resistance to the acids etc formed in old oil.

Subsequent layers transition from that to ironically bonded micro platelets akin to micro playing cards sliding over each other.
The layer is around 0.5 microns thick in total.

The coefficient of friction numbers are crazy low. Well into the 'Too good to be true' range. Something like 70X more slippery than steel-oil-steel IIRC.

So my initial test of a heaped tablespoon of Boric Acid, stirred into a coffee mug of boiling water went into a properly knackered engine where you couldn't see behind you for smoke and max speed was around 80, at which point it felt frighteningly like the engine was about to vibrate itself too destruction.

I poured it into the pre warmed engine and took off immediately.
I took it very easy as I knew the emulsion was doing nothing for oil thickness.
About 10km later I could feel the engine smooth out and a look in the rearview mirror revealed that I could see behind me once again.

Gobsmaked and in a state of shock and awe I gave it the gas and discovered that the engine had come back to life, was smooth as can be, and happily went up to a bit over the original top speed of the car.
(It was a little 1200, 4 speed Toyota that maxed out at 140KM/h. (rpm limited))

After that it went into my 2L Mazda and Dads 728 BMW etc-etc. all to great effect.
Except:
The Isuzu truck was no fun on an early morning winter trip as the damn engine just wouldn't warm up to the point where the heater would work!

NB!!!
VWs use a very fine sieve on the oil pump pickup.
The Boric ceramic coating gets in under the sludge that's inevitable in any engine fed a mixture of oil brands and the loosened sludge blocks the pickup, requiring one to drop the sump and clean the sieve.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Erdemir's friction tables of the 1994 Argonne Patent:
* The only PATENT 'motor oil' tested was an ASTM 'reference oil' of SAE 15W-40, with a friction coefficient of Mu= 0.110 under a load of 2-kilograms.
* The same reference oil with Dr. Erdemir's nano-boric acid particles exhibited Mu=0.090 under the same conditions, for an 18.2% friction reduction, a bit short of the 700% bandied about.
* Elsewhere, I believe Logic reported filling with SAE 20W-40. Not sure if Toyota recommends that weight of oil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If 'tested' in the Cape Town area:
* the 'smoky' 80-km/h 'top speed' could have meant anywhere from an 56.3 km/h-to-103.6 km/h airspeed, and the aerodynamic drag power variability that comes from it.
* Daylight warming could vary from 6-hours/day sunshine, to 11-hours, and road-temperature rolling resistance variability.
* Outdoor ambient temperature ranging from 17.7-C to 27.3-C, with heat-related performance variability implications over this range.
* ASTM testing would require pre-test 'thermal -equilibration' conditioning, driving a minimum of 36-km, at 88-km/h, for 24.5-minutes before any 'testing' began.
Without the temperature stabilization, the fuel economy of the Toyota would vary by 20%, without ANY change to the car.
- Tires are considered 'COLD' @ 21.1-C ( 70-F ), and rolling-resistance can rise by 40% at lower temperatures.
- If one makes the mistake of installing new tires at this time, you won't experience advertized rolling-resistance for 4,000-miles ( 6437-km ).
* Also, the 'hammering out the pistons' and whatever changes made to the 1200cc engine would require a ASTM, 50-hour break-in cycle to stabilize the internal friction of the 'altered' engine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MotorSilk, the only nano-boric acid oil additive commercially available informs the purchaser to expect:
* 1-12-hours, or 2000-miles to 'see' results ( 1-hour @ 2,000-mph, or 12-hours @ 167-mph ? [ gotta love sales people ]).
* Logic experiences 'results' in 10-km ( 200X better than MotorSilk ? )

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

Ionic
Same as Molybdenum Disulphide, but I don't think MoS2 forms a protective ceramic layer on the metal surface and does not have the crazy low coefficient of friction of Boric Acid.
I havent researched it nearly as much as H3BO3.


The above results demonstrate that with a mixture of boric acid and an oil lubricant, the friction coefficients are reduced by 10 to over 1000% below those of the unmixed lubricant itself. The wear rates of pins are reduced by factors of 50 to 100 below those of pins tested in unmixed oil itself.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5431830A/en

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) 'ALL' friction modifiers 'plate' the metal surface.
2) There was never a protective 'ceramic layer' formed from the boric acid.
3) 'Argonne's' boric acid nanoparticle-modified SAE 15W-40 achieved Mu= 0.090.
- RedLine's synthetic 40W had Mu=0.0453
- Ford Motor Company's MoDTC-modified SAE 5W-30 motor oil achieved Mu= 0.067
- Un-modified API-SF SAE 30W @ 5,000-rpm was Mu= 0.054
- All ASTM-tested non-boric acid-modified motor oils had lower friction than Dr. Erdemir's ASTM-tested boric acid-modified motor oil.
- ASTM pin-on-disk wear tests were conducted under 'SEVERE TRIBOLOGICAL CONDITIONS', Dr. Ali Erdemir, and have no bearing on 'NORMAL' operating conditions.
4) Wu Hongxing et al., at The State Key Laboratory of Solidification Processing, Center of Advanced Lubrication and Seal Materials, Northwestern Polytechnical University, Xi'an, Shaanxi, China managed to achieve a 31.2% friction reduction with 100 nm Boric Acid in oil, but all the powder 'settled out' of the oil within 2-days ( 48-hours ).

[freebeard]

Okay, you win. Can we get back to Aerodynamics?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

"... In the diagram above, the contact areas where losses occur due to friction are shown in yellow. The most significant energy losses occur around the piston (at approximately 45% of [friction] losses); followed by the links between the connecting rod, crankshaft and cylinder block (approximately 30%); and around the valves and their actuating system (approximately 10%)...
...around 15% less fuel consumption..."
https://theconversation.com/how-cars...ir-fuel-197752

I say again:
Want an easy way to save fuel:
Boil a cup of water and stir in a heaped tablespoon of Boric Acid (NOT Boracic)
Add that to a warmed up engine's oil and immediately do around 10km of sedate driving.
Oil should be at the full level: Any excess water will boil off quickly, taking the level back to where it was before.

When you notice the engine smooth out; you're good to go.

Gearbox:
Works well here too (at lower doses) BUT:
The syncro rings in a gearbox rely on friction to get the gears spinning at the same speed so they don't grate.
Those that have/can drive a manual without a clutch wont have a problem. Basically you have to rev match and/or apply pressure to the reqd gear's syncro for a bit longer before pushing the gear home.
Or add only very little.

Diff:
Works very well here too (at lower doses) BUT:
Limited Slip Differentials rely on friction to work, so your limited slip will become a LOT less limited.
Limited Slip Differentials are only useful in very enthusiastic driving. If you don't know what a LS Diff is; you don't need one and probably don't have one.
(Sorts out Diff Whine)

Wheel Bearing grease:
Requires less water to Boric Acid ratio to make a paste of grease-like consistency that will mix well with the grease.

Volkswagens: (Golf, Jetta, etc)
Have a very fine mesh over the oil pump pickup.
If you have been adding any old oil brand to the engine, the various additives have formed a sludge thats attached to the engine interior.
That sludge comes loose thx to the Boric Acid and will block the fine seive.

Using BA in these engines involves dropping the sump more than once to clean the mess out, and/or replacing the fine mesh with a courser mesh.

Very old smokey engines:
Your oil pressure will be down due to excessive wear in the main etc pressure fed bearings.
The Boric Acid + Boiling Water mix will temporarily thin the oil and could lead to 'oil pressure too low' issues.
Here you need to add a quarter cup of BA at a time a drive to get it boiled off between adding more.

If you're thinking of shouting Unicorn:
Good! I look forward to it!
We can play a game:
For every peer reviewed published research paper I post, saying this works; you post one saying it doesn't. OK?
I'll be starting off with the studies done by the inventors of this; Argonne National Labs, so do come prepared.

I don't want to mess up my oil chemistry:
You've heard the saying: "Oil and water don't mix.."
That's correct: They form an emulsion of tiny droplets of water in the oil.
With BA added; said droplets react with and coat the metal surfaces and any left over water simply boils off.
ie: Your oil's chemistry is not changed because what you're adding does not dissolve into the oil.

If you're uncomfortable with adding water to your oil: NB that for every liter of fuel burned your engine produces about a liter of water.
A lot of that goes past the piston rings , so there's already a substantial amount of water in your engine oil. Water in which various mild acids, also formed during combustion, are dissolved.
I suggest an immediate emergency oil change, then never starting the car ever again!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Under 'Normal' driving conditions, the film strength of the oil's E-P additive package 'prevents' any direct metal-to-metal contact. That's what there in the oil for.
2) Where a 'motorist' might exceed the capabilities of the oil for 'NORMAL' 'boundary-lubrication -region are :
A) Any 'conditions' outside those proscribed by General Motors for 'NORMAL' operation
B) Racing
C) Heavy Load
D) Trailer Towing
E) Taxi-Cab service
F) Delivery Truck Operation
G) European Short-Distance Commuting
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any statement promoting the notion that a 15% fuel economy potential exists as a consequence of 'sliding friction' reduction during 'NORMAL' operation falls completely outside the realm of scientific reality!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Argonne wasn't doing research applicable to 'old, smoky, worn-out' engines
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
' Boron-CLS-Bond, originally discovered and patented by USDOE, Argonne National Laboratory.. does not necessarily reflect views of the USDOE ' ( from, The United States Department of Energy )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Water' does not exist in motor oil, 30-minutes after the engine reaches 'operating temperature.' ( 100-C / 212-F )

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Hyperbole much?

adpistonring.com: Piston Ring Joint Configuration

The butt cut used in automotive applications is least effective. a step cut or sure-seal joint for the piston ring is better. The tri-lap seal is used for steam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By 1986, Ford Motor Company's,' thin', 'low-tension' piston-rings had:
1) Improved top-ring/bore conformity by 3%
2) 2nd compression-ring/bore conformity by 19%
3) Oil-Ring/ bore conformity by 400%
IMHO that 'blow-by' doesn't project much of a 'return' on a tribological radar screen with today's state-of-the-art in engine manufacturing technology, and probably hasn't for many decades.
4) That a manufacturer will currently warranty their engines for 10-years says something about 'engine wear.'
5) Many light vehicle engines have easily exceeded 300,000-mile service lives for over 35-years now, with only oil & filter changes performed at the recommended interval.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

There were world renowned engineers around saying heavier than air flight was impossible just before the Wright Brothers' first flight.

Statistically a new fantastic new idea, that seems too good to be true, comes around about once every 30 years.
I believe, from experience, that this is one.
Why else would I risk my rep here? It's not like I make anything from tharing my experience with Boric Acid...

But I get it; not everyone likes to, or is even capable of, changing their minds when presented with new facts...

Here's a fact: There's metal participles attached to the magnet in the engine sump plug that everyone cleans off every time they change the oil.
IF
There's no metal to metal contact between engine bearing surfaces
THEN
Where do these particles come from?
Teleportation??!

Yes sure the bearing surface mostly float over each other... mostly...
What would happen to their ability to float if the gap between them was smaller and smoother on a microscopic level?

What would happen if the acids that form in old engine oil could not pit bearing surfaces because there was a chemically inert ceramic layer with 85% the hardness of diamond attached to said surface?

I NB you haven't taken up the challenge of finding peer reviewed, published, research saying Boric Acid in oil DOES NOT work.
Why is that..?
I have 25 papers ready to go in my favorites so far. Lets play!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The first question one must ask is, is what they're observing 'normal' or 'abnormal.'
2) The second question would be, where on the timeline of engine technology does 'my' engine fall?
3) Superfinishing has been on-going since 1989.
4) Superfinishing accomplishes the same thing as what 'Boron' promised.
5) Superfinishing 'removes' the 'asperities' which historically posed a threat of 'high-pointing' during a severe load, allowing actual metal- to- metal contact that Dr. Erdemir hoped 'Boron's film-strength' could prevent, saving the engine.
6) Formula-1 has used superfinished valvetrains since the 1990s, allowing 14,000-rpm engines to survive to race another day.
Same for NASCAR, who's race teams can use the same 9,000-rpm engine for the 'entire' race season, because of 'asperity-free', and engineered 'rough' isotropic surfaces which are havens for oil to reside ( Too-smooth = Engine Death! )
7) Your 'ceramic' surface is a 'MYTH'. It NEVER happened!
8) It is from Dr. Ali Erdemir's 'Peer-reviewed' research that YOU provided that we learn that the 'theoretical concept', patented in 1994, never played out. Your 25-ppapers failed to make your case.
9) MotorSilk waited 17-years until the Argonne patent expired in 2012 before they got involved, probably paying 'nothing' in royalties. And they got an 'un-proven' technology ( unlike Fender electric guitars which anyone can manufacture, and sell; and the buyer gets a pretty good instrument even though it's only a 'clone.'