Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-09-2013, 02:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
Coasting in the Carolinas
 
wolydotmatrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: CLT, NC
Posts: 33

Blue - '94 Honda Civic DX
Team Honda
90 day: 47.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Brake upgrade?

How to upgrade your braking sys for extended EOC time.

Was ask to give a small write up on this subject
The first part of this information I borrowed from BrakeExpert over on honda-tech.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...47534661,d.dmQ

I will share what I feel is relevant for EOC.
Brake Booster:
"Upgrading your brake booster to the Integra (or maybe other) sized one has the only drawback of pushing the MC forward, so the hardlines aren't going to be in the same place as they were. So bending hardlines may be in order. What a bigger booster does is the same thing as increasing the pedal length, it increases the force on the MC linearly. Like it may may push on it 40% harder or so at any given point. So this basically makes your foot do less work. This is for people who have a really soft foot and want to make their car brake 'harder'. This can be done, but given the weight of the civic chassis, if you use the right sized MC with its paired caliper, no upgrade to the booster is necessary. It gets to the point where its just personal preference."

"Master Cylinder relative to the Caliper:
When you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.
General rule is…with your stock Civic DX, with the stock front calipers, keep your 13/16” MC. Any bigger and your pedal will be too stiff.
With EX/Si calipers, use a 7/8” MC from a 96-00 EX or 99-00 Si because of the more fluid going to a larger piston.
With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long.
With NSX or Legend GS calipers that have two pistons, or an aftermarket caliper with multiple pistons, you’ll want a 1” MC because of even more fluid required to push all the pistons. Get the 1” MC from a 98-01 Integra GSR or ITR MC as it bolts onto the EK brake booster.
When changing out a master cylinder, be sure to 'bench bleed' it first. This involves having fluid in the resovoir and pumping it unconnected to allow fluid to fill the internals. If you don't do this, you can still bleed the car, but you may be at it all day, since air pockets may stick in there. Research bench bleeding before you attempt this on your own.
A bigger caliper usually has a bigger bracket, thus holds a bigger surface area pad. This is generally better, and that’s why on a Civic, you swap on an Integra caliper, because the piston is bigger (more fluid, that doesn’t help) but the pad is bigger, and the piston disperses its energy over more area because of a larger contact surface with the shim."

His write up is very detailed.
My personal gas sipper was once a track car, NASA time trials. Throgh my upgrading experiences I ended up with an interesting combo for a brake sys.
Booster 290V from either accord or ITR can't remember. ITR brake master cylinder 1", stainless steel soft lines, and Legend 2 pot calipers, 95 prelude VTEC rotors redrilled and 98 Accord V6 pads. This sys is over kill for 40+ mpg. However, as I utilize the EOC driving I feel better with this setup. The larger bore master and the increased size of the booster allow longer EOC events IMO. For instance, I have been able Glide for upto 1.5 miles @45mph with little to no increase in pedal effort. While my set up is extreme, the results are sound.

Cons:
I am limited to 15" rim
The entire sys weighs more.

Alternate:

The master , booster and stainless lines would be a good upgrade with out having to change wheels.
"Food For thought"
Open for discussion:

-Adam-

__________________
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wolydotmatrix For This Useful Post:
California98Civic (06-09-2013)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-09-2013, 03:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
What?
__________________


  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Frank Lee For This Useful Post:
Cobb (02-23-2014)
Old 06-09-2013, 03:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
Coasting in the Carolinas
 
wolydotmatrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: CLT, NC
Posts: 33

Blue - '94 Honda Civic DX
Team Honda
90 day: 47.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
?

I mentioned in a post where I upgraded my booster to increase the volume or available vaccum to operate the brakes. I was asked by Calicivic to provide a write up about the booster upgrage.
__________________
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Last edited by wolydotmatrix; 06-09-2013 at 04:27 PM.. Reason: Correct info
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 830
Thanks: 44
Thanked 104 Times in 80 Posts
Calicivic was the one who asked that. I asked about deleting the booster completely so as not to be at the mercy of a vacuum source to stop.

As for your write up, I didn't read every word, but I don't believe that going to a bigger brakes requires a bigger booster. As for going to bigger brakes, it is generally a waste of time and money unless you race or live in very hilly areas and carry large loads.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 04:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
Coasting in the Carolinas
 
wolydotmatrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: CLT, NC
Posts: 33

Blue - '94 Honda Civic DX
Team Honda
90 day: 47.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
My mistake. I was under the impression that some, may be looking for a facory upgrage to increase the amount of reserve vaccum for EOC events. Even if the vaccum was was depleted the larger bore master would provide increased (unassisted) braking as well. Maybe my logic is off, but it wouldn't be the first time.
__________________
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 04:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 830
Thanks: 44
Thanked 104 Times in 80 Posts
It is all about creating hydraulic pressure. I believe a larger bore would actually mean lower pressure for a given amount of pedal pressure. And my experience with trying to stop various vehicles after they have run out of vacuum is that the larger vehicles with the larger MCs take much more leg power to muscle them to a stop.

I wonder if having ABS necessitates power assisted brakes? I suspect it probably does.

Would like to have an older small car with slightly oversized manual disc brakes all around. I would think that such a system would stop just fine with little effort and would likely provide better brake feel.

Motorcycles stop just fine with manual brakes. Yes, they are much lighter than a car, but, you are using just a few fingers for all the force you need. Your right leg can easily produce 10X the force
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 07:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
My favorite brakes are those found on my '59 Bel Air, '60 Microbus, and '66 Corvair: unassisted drums all around. No drag, no vacuum, no muss, no fuss. My least favorite brakes are on the Gold Wing- stupid caliper/piston design very susceptible to corrosion then dragging and then seizing up.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 04:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Thanks again for this thread... I just posted my mod of my brake booster on my car's build thread: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post412414
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 10:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
JRMichler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Phillips, WI
Posts: 1,016

Nameless - '06 GMC Canyon
90 day: 37.45 mpg (US)

22 Maverick - '22 Ford Maverick XL
90 day: 48.08 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 467 Times in 287 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete c View Post

I wonder if having ABS necessitates power assisted brakes? I suspect it probably does.
The ABS in my truck work just fine during EOC after completely depleting the vacuum. I was curious, so I tested it.
__________________
06 Canyon: The vacuum gauge plus wheel covers helped increase summer 2015 mileage to 38.5 MPG, while summer 2016 mileage was 38.6 MPG without the wheel covers. Drove 33,021 miles 2016-2018 at 35.00 MPG.

22 Maverick: Summer 2022 burned 62.74 gallons in 3145.1 miles for 50.1 MPG. Winter 2023-2024 - 2416.7 miles, 58.66 gallons for 41 MPG.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2014, 10:59 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 2,643
Thanks: 1,502
Thanked 279 Times in 229 Posts
You up graded the brakes to help EOC? DIdnt read anything about use of the napa drag reduction springs. On the insight forum we just cut power to the injectors, not reengineer the braking system.

Me, I went to cross drilled, slotted rotors, ceramic pads inaddition to routine bleeding of the system when I rotate tires and snugging of the drums.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com