Calling Vx Owners! Would you trade for first gen Insight?

[live4soccer7]

He will sell for 3250. What's expensive??

[Ecky]

I could see one with those miles going for 4500- 5000 if it's really clean. I consider that a good price.

[live4soccer7]

Thanks! I'll let you know what I decide to do.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

$3250 for a 100K Insight isn't bad! If you purchase, keep in mind some negotiation points if any of them apply:

• Oil leak - as Ecky said, avoid those
• Transmission downshift grinding
• CEL - usually catalytic converters or O2 sensors if not an IMA issue. Bring a tester and check for yourself
• IMA light
• Missing underbody panels
• Rust on brake lines, etc.
• Evidence of damage, etc., as with any car

If you get the car and later on end up needing to replace the IMA battery, drive without it for a few days to see if you can handle it without the battery. I did that when I was diagnosing an IMA light issue (turned out to be ground straps - an easy $15 fix). Fuel economy was literally the same without the battery -- and in some cases better since I could EOC to stops rather than regen brake -- and driveability really wasn't that much different to me. It's just a matter of disconnecting the BCM and turning off the battery to temporarily run it gasoline only.

[live4soccer7]

What are some of the other replacement batteries that are decent out there? I'm just looking at the costs. Bumblebee was 1400-1500 approximately with shipping. Just trying to get an idea if that's about the normal price out there or if there are other options.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by live4soccer7

What are some of the other replacement batteries that are decent out there? I'm just looking at the costs. Bumblebee was 1400-1500 approximately with shipping. Just trying to get an idea if that's about the normal price out there or if there are other options.

I believe there's Dorman as well as one other, can't remember. Dorman and Bumblee's cheaper batteries do not in fact use new cells, but instead salvage and match the best cells from existing old Honda packs from the cores people return to them. It's more often the case that the original packs have a few cells much better or worse than the rest, resulting in the packs getting quickly out of balance and the weakest cells getting very abused, causing a cascading failure. The "BeeMax" are the ones with new cells but frankly they may not last any longer than the salvaged cells.

[live4soccer7]

Thanks! I appreciate the information.

I've been reading about grid chargers. When one needs to start using a grid charger, how often do you typically use one to keep the pack functional on a single grid charge?

Also, how long roughly will grid charging work before a new pack becomes inevitable?

I'm curious about these so I know what I'm getting myself in to. I understand the questions can't be answered definitively, but just trying to get some sort of idea.


From what I understand, members at insightcenteral, are working on a lithium plug in pack? Is this to allow the lithium pack to be charged and driven with more assist and increasing mpg? Is the idea with this to completely replace the current battery pack? Any idea if it will charge as well while driving or only by plugging the car in while not in use?


I'm just looking at the options down the road. I know this isn't ready yet and may never be ready. I could definitely use something that would run 15-30 miles on a charge. I keep my cars for a long time, so I'm looking down the road and the potential of the car. I only put about 7k miles on my car a year, so something like an insight would last a very long time for me (except the batteries). edit: Doing some reading, PHEV seems to be the correct term for this.

I have the mechanical knowledge to fix the transmission issue myself when it starts acting up.

[Ecky]

Ideally a grid charger is used from day one in a brand new car. Honda's battery management doesn't do as good a job as Toyota's at keeping the cells in balance and as they are used, the cells will begin to drift apart. Drift enough and some cells will be nearly empty while others are nearly full. The cells at either end are abused by over-charging and over-draining, causing early failure.

A grid charger gets the cells back in balance by very gently overcharging all of the cells until they're all full. This isn't great for them, but it's a far lesser evil than letting them get out of balance.

I was charging my healthy pack 2-3x per year, preventatively. On a battery weak enough to throw an IMA light you might have to charge as often as once per month to keep the light off - these packs have cells damaged enough that they very rapidly get out of balance. Once the IMA light is coming on more often than this, replacement is imminent.

In a mild climate, a regularly balanced oem battery might last many decades. An already abused and failing pack might be limped along for years.

The lithium pack is simply intended to be an alternative to the very poor quality NiMH cells on the market, which will function in the same way. If you can plug it in at night and turn the car into a 150mpg+ PHEV that's just icing on the cake. I believe this is still TBD. I've heard of people who grid charge their NiMH batteries every night and get boatloads of assist, resulting in fuel economy too high for the car's computer to track, but this is detrimental to NiMH battery lifespan. It wouldn't be for a properly designed lithium alternative.

Edit: you can build an effective homebrew grid charger for as little as $30. I have plans in my Insight thread, linked in my signature.

[live4soccer7]

Thank you, AGAIN. This has helped tremendously.

Is it the heat or the cold that does a number on the batteries?

I've got a good grade on I90 that I go up that's about 5 miles. Would this be something that would likely use most of the battery and cause that in balance issue to be accentuated since they may be depleted in such a scenario. Would it be better to get get something like MIMA in order to disable assist on such a hill to help preserve the batteries in the long term? Everything else that I do is pretty darn flat and easy.


When I test drove the car the battery level indicator was about 3-4 little bars from the top. Is this normal? Just want to make sure I'm not looking of something since I'm not familiar at all with hybrids (becoming more so right now, haha)

[Ecky]

Mostly heat. NiMH can't provide as much current or charge as quickly when cold, but internal resistance is much higher when cold so using the battery warms it up. The computers know when it's cold and limit current in and out of the battery until it warms enough. Being warm just plain damages the battery, so those batteries from places like Arizona typically die very young.

Cold kills lithium batteries though. Try to charge LIon below freezing and it turns into a bomb. LiFePO4 just dies. EVs sitting in the cold run heaters to keep their batteries above freezing for this reason.

Regarding your grade, there's a simple clutch switch ($2 to set up) you can add to an 00-04 (I think) which can disable assist. I don't think it works on 05-06 models. Alternately you can just run in a lower gear, since assist requested is based mostly (I think) on engine load and RPM. Climb in 4th or 3rd and it probably won't use assist.

Battery charge bars don't necessarily indicate anything. They're calibrated continuously and don't represent anything absolute. Something to look out for is a rapid change in the bars, e.g. see it ride or fall 6-8 bars in a few seconds, as this is a recalibration.