The Cars GM Needs To Make

[owlafaye]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Have you ever darkened the door of an engineering school, Ogden?

Not only an ME but I minored in "Time and Motion Study" and "Drivetrain Applications" not to mention "Doing the Walk" most of my life. I participated in the design of one of the first industrial All Terrain Vehicles, leased to oil exploration countries all over the world.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I think the original lead-acid batteries gave the EV1 a range of 90 miles? Why wouldn't NiMH do a least as well?

[UK Mark]

Guys, you need to look into the European car market to see what should be happening with diesels in the US. My everyday car is a 2007 Fiat Bravo, which is about the same size as a Mazda 3. It is fitted with a 1.9 litre 4 cylinder turbocharged diesel engine and returns an average of 50mpg (imperial gallons - about 42mpg US) in mixed driving. Doens't sound too good until you realise this car has 150bhp, 230lbft and hits 60mph in under 8 seconds. It is aslo every bit as quiet and refined as the gas engined versions. Fiat have recently launched a 1.6 litre turbo diesel with 100 bhp and that returns around 65mpg (54mpg US) and there are more economical cars still. What will probably annoy you guys most are the diesel powered American cars we have over here. Did you know that I could go out tomorrow and buy a Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, Wrangler or Patriot with a diesel engine, not to mention the Dodge Caliber and Avenger. Ford also produce a range of diesels (and very good ones) for the Fiesta, Focus, and Mondeo not to mention the Transit and Ranger (Euro version, which is a lot smaller than the US version). GM are also in on the act producing diesel versions of the Vectra (now replaced by the all new Insignia) and Astra (which is a sub-compact and nothing to do with the US Astra).

It doesn't stop there. Everyone knows VW sell diesel cars, but what about Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Land Rover and all the Japanese makers? They might not in the US, but in Europe they certainly do sell diesels. In fact, in the UK the Discovery 3 (LR3) diesel outsells the gas version by about 10 to 1, and even the Range Rover Sport sells more diesels than gas versions. As for the Freelander (LR2) I've seen hundreds of diesels, but only 1 or 2 with a gas engine. And if that's not enough, in the UK you can even buy a diesel version of the latest Mini!

Our fuel prices might give you an idea why diesel is so popular in the UK. As of today the prices are £0.95/litre for unleaded ($5.76/USgallon) and diesel is £1.07/litre ($6.50/USgallon). And those prices have come down. At their peak a couple of months back unleaded was £1.20/litre ($7.28/USgallon) and diesel was £1.35/litre ($8.19/USgallon). Anything that will keep costs down has to be considered, and even though diesel is more expensive than gas here at the moment, the prices are still close enough to make going diesel a no brainer. Go into France or Germany and there are even more diesels on the road because over there diesel is still cheaper than gas.

Going back to the original subject, GM and Ford don't have to work too hard to bring diesels into the US. They just need to use the European cars as a starting point. If Audi or Mercedes decided to bring diesels into the US they would wipe the floor with the current American offerings. Both have a range of engines available to them going from a fairly small 2 litre I4 through V6 and V8 version to V12 (Mercedes) and V10 or V12 (Audi). In both cases the top engines are 6 litre units with enough power to give a Corvette or Mustang a run for their money on the drag strip. And Land Rover have effectively made their stock 4.2 & 4.4 V8 gas engines redundant in the UK by introducing an advanced 3.6 litre V8 diesel that not only uses a lot less fuel, but drives and sounds much better than the gas V8! US car makers need to stop messing about because sooner or later European car makers (and that could include the Euro branhces of Ford & GM) will realise there is actually a market for diesels in the US and will start importing them.

[Big Dave]

"Car and Driver" tested the EV-1 and rarely ever got more than 35 miles from it. No, they were not hypermilers, but more like the average Joe driver.

The Volt goes 40 miles before the engine comes on. That's 5 miles better than the EV-1. Is that much of an improvement?

It is questionable if there will be a GM to build the Volt.

UK Mark:
The US has three real hurdles for Eoro-diesel cars.

Crash test standards. No problem for a Benz but difficult for a car under 3000 lb to meet.

Tier II:
Requires a barrier filter that wrecks MPG and urea injection for NOx.

Diesel prices a buck a gallon higher than gasoline.

The US auto market ain't as easy as it looks. Yeah, Toyota is dominant. It only took them three and a half decades to get there.

[Big Dave]

Caterpillar doesn't make generator engines in excess of 1000 HP? That would be news to thousands of 3500 and 3600 serie Cat engine owners. A 3616 is rated for 6000 HP and it is a V-16. All the 3500s I've seen are Vee engines.

I hear this drivel all the time from Cummins fans.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The Volt probably weighs a lot more than the EV1. And yes, it could be made into a serial hybrid, and probably be redesigned to be a 4 seater more easily than finishing the Volt.

The Aptera is supposed to go 120 miles on a 10kWh battery, while the Volt goes just 40 miles on a 16kWh battery. The Aptera hybrid will go 60-70 miles on the battery, and then extend the range to ~700 miles using ~5 gallons of gasoline.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

"Car and Driver" tested the EV-1 and rarely ever got more than 35 miles from it. No, they were not hypermilers, but more like the average Joe driver.

I think that's debatable. I'd be more inclined to say Consumer Reports writers might be closer to "average" than C&D, who are all about "performance" (of the acceleration/speed & high G variety, exclusively).

Neil: GM actually had a finished 4 passenger EV1 prototype with small combustion range extender (forget whether it was a turbine or piston engine).

[owlafaye]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Caterpillar doesn't make generator engines in excess of 1000 HP? That would be news to thousands of 3500 and 3600 serie Cat engine owners. A 3616 is rated for 6000 HP and it is a V-16. All the 3500s I've seen are Vee engines.

I hear this drivel all the time from Cummins fans.

I never mentioned Cummins thanks...in addition; I am referring to a smaller Caterpillar diesel V that has demonstrated a long term reliability that the larger Cat V's don't.

Inline engines run longer than V designs between overhauls, much much much longer...tis a FACT...maintenance is less by a huge factor.

When you talk 110,000 horsepower (One Hundred and Ten THOUSAND horsepower) the V's are not and will never be in the picture. Large V designs DON'T WORK.

I am there Dave, right in the middle of the industry...!

[SuperTrooper]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,

The Volt probably weighs a lot more than the EV1. And yes, it could be made into a serial hybrid, and probably be redesigned to be a 4 seater more easily than finishing the Volt.

The Aptera is supposed to go 120 miles on a 10kWh battery, while the Volt goes just 40 miles on a 16kWh battery. The Aptera hybrid will go 60-70 miles on the battery, and then extend the range to ~700 miles using ~5 gallons of gasoline.

Here's a comparison by autobloggreen:

Detroit Auto Show: Chevy Volt vs GM EV1 by the numbers - AutoblogGreen

How does the Chevy Volt Concept compare to the GM EV1? Here is the run-down:


EV1 Volt
Battery type: Lead Acid LiIon
Battery volume: 300L 100L
Charging voltage: 220V 110V/while driving
Charging Time: 8 hours 6-6.5 hours
QuickCharge Capable NO YES
Passenger capacity: 2 passengers 4 passengers
Acceleration (0-60) 8-9 sec 8-8.5 sec
Top speed: 80 mph 120+ mph
Pure EV Range: 60-90 miles 40 miles
Total Range 60-90 miles 640 miles
Curb weight: 3084 lbs 3140 lbs

(I can't figure out how to keep the formatting for the columns, so please refer to the article.)

Throwing the Aptera into the mix is tricky since it isn't a car and lacks most of the safety features expected in a car. The ranges listed for the Aptera are estimates provided by the builder. I've yet to see any report on real world use of an Aptera, but I suspect reality will be slightly less.

[Big Dave]

Anybody in the industry would know EMD hasn't made new 567s for forty years. Since then have been the 645s and 710s.

An inline engine is inherently heavier than a Vee. An inline has one "crankcase per cylinder. A Vee has two cylinders per crankcase.

A flat engine (a Vee with a 180 degree included angle is very smooth because all forces are equally opposed.

Inline engines are generally easier to work on.