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Old 09-26-2009, 02:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Jammer -

I can't find the thread right now, but we surmised that the Volt MPG claim is taking advantage of the current EPA computations for plug-in hybrids. We don't have any mass-production plug-ins right now. We do have aftermarket stuff for the Prius that claims 100+ MPG. The Volt MPG will be based on the owner's driving patterns, so it will vary wildly.

If the Volt can do 20-30% better than the current Prius, then I think that will be a win for GM. I think that's obtainable with plug-in tech. I think the emissions/price of the electricity coming out of the wall is a separate issue.

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Old 09-26-2009, 08:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I talked to a guy today about the Volt and he made a good point. GM claims it might cost as much as 75 cents to $2.50/$2.75 (USD) to fully charge the battery at home with the plug-in charge. Next they claim it will go 40 miles on electricity only. Well heck, many sub-compact gasoline cars get at least 40 miles a gallon, and the price of gasoline here is under $2.50 currently (this could change soon however). Most charges would be only a partial charge with the plug-in due to the fact the battery will most likely be charged to an extent when parked. It gets rather confusing. So there seems to be no real advantage in savings if you drive 40 miles or less a day and it costs $2.50 to charge it. The real money savings will have to kick in once the gasoline motor starts charging the car at the rate of 230 miles per gallon- even if you subtract 40 miles, that is still 190 mpg.

I think GM better breakdown their numbers better because in some ways it does not seem as good. It all depends on how you look at the numbers and how much you depend on the gasoline motor to recharge the battery.
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Old 09-27-2009, 12:27 AM   #13 (permalink)
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...what? you expect GM to "...tell the truth, and spill the beans?"

...ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
No that thought never occurred to me. I don't know of a single person personally that buys a new car based on the climate.
Well, you "know" me :-) And reducing CO2 emissions was right up there near the top of the list of reasons I bought my Insight - other ones being not wanting to send more money than necessary to the jihadists, wanting a small 2-seat hatchback, similarity to my previous CRX, etc.

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If your worried about the climate then one needs to factor in their electricity used, see if it's from COAL...
No, unless you're planning to e.g. install a stand-alone solar panel to charge it. Electricity is fungible, so the only reasonable factor to consider is the percentage of coal on the national grid (about 50%), and whether the full path from mine to electric drive generates less CO2 per mile than oil from well to IC engine.

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But, at least where I live we have very clean air and nobody ever talks about the climate...
Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that not everyone in the world is exactly like you and your neighbors? Sure, lots of people won't buy a Volt for the reasons you stated. That still leaves a lot of people who might. After all, they bought Priuses, didn't they? Yet back when it was first introduced, we saw almost exactly the same arguments being made against its success.
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by noxman View Post
The Chevy Volt: 230 mpg for car and need 230 new nuclear electric power station

I miss the point of this ""eco"" car.
Surely not? It's trivially simple: burning oil emits lots of fossil CO2, generating power from nuclear fission does not.
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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...make it "nuclear powered" and then, if the Jihadists attack, we could turn all the cars into rolling "bombs" (wink,wink)!
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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About Electricity:

I'm sure we all can agree that we need money, or JOBS, in order to put food on the table and even drive a car. I happen to live in east Kentucky in which our economy is pretty much Government, Health Care, and COAL (about 95%). Otherwise our people are on fixed income. Many here support burning of Coal because it helps our local economy. Our air is very clean as well and we have inexpensive electricity via co-ops. Every time I have checked the figures the air in this part of the country is about as clean as it gets. So it is a matter of priorities. Sure we can worry ourselves to death about harm to the earth that is still very much in debate, OR we can worry about putting food on the table. So I for one support what I know about this plug-in electric car, besides it should not use that much electricity anyway- it's mainly just to get the cars on the road and then the eco-friendly small gasoline engine keeps the battery charged. The bottom line is a whole lot less burning of fossil fuels and less damage to the environment if The Volt performs as G.M. claims.

Frankly, money matters and good health mean more to me. If one has no means of support nor good health then they likely will not be around to live as long of a life as others. These are the priorities of the people I know. I wish we could be as concerned about something like what comes out of an exhaust pipe, but many of us have much more serious short term pressing matters to deal with. Now if I had a comfortable life then I would have time to worry over the possibility of global warming etc... But for the moment I am personally more concerned about employment and health care, as are the friends I have. As I am equally as concerned about getting the highest MPG out of my car, thus my reason for being on this site.

I guess nuclear fission works well for countries like China. But I still have an intense fear of this technology, especially in the case of terrorism. However I remain open minded, with the thoughts that I would not want one in MY backyard.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Seems funny~ (short term) big paychecks and convenience trumping (long term) environmental destruction...
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I do not accept this strange method.
Its just moved energy, nothing special.

Better burning gas with more strictly emission limits (co2- Carbon which is natural element ) than build more nuclear power stations or coal power stations.

If we are thinking about massive production, then will be a big problem with low power in your land. Only solution i see with new nuclear power station or burning coal in electric power stations...
That is, like I've been thinking and reading. If 10 milion people can say have the best eco-car, energetic companies say thank you for your money, but what say Earth..

Let me little calculate:
8kw/h - 40 miles = in your country ~ 3$ for 40 miles trip.
That mean in 100km trip i will pay 4.5 $ with electric car, with hypermilers gasoline car 4l/100km is ~6 $,with extra diesel like Audi A2 1.2 tdi (3l/100km) is the same amount like Gm volt - 4.5 $.


Quotation of one list from czech tech-web site Translated with google.)

Chevrolet Volt: What risk, if green "Obama" hybrid succeed?

"If it was in operation 10 million hybrids a similar structure as the Chevy, it would mean the operation of ten nuclear power plants only to recharge the batteries."


We are talking about kilowatt-hours, so from the automotive industry, finally, are moving to electricity. What could therefore be the impact of massive deployment of hybrid cars?

Assuming ideal operation Chevy in terms of emissions, ie the daily driving above 40 miles solely on electric power, which corresponds to 8 kWh of electricity consumption. For the 1 million that is 8 million kWh, or to 8 GWh. Charging Time Chevy's from standard North American distribution of low voltage 120 V/15 A is expressed at 6.5 hours, equivalent to taking approximately 11A. Required amount of electricity for recharging 1 million cars in that time is able to produce such a nuclear power plant with gross capacity of about 1300 MWe.

Nuclear power plant here, I said quite deliberately. One of the objectives of reducing fuel consumption of cars is the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. In this case, too does not make environmental sense, if electricity for recharging batteries produced by burning coal, respectively. gas. Under certain restrictive conditions also are eligible for renewable energy sources, reported as hydro or wind power

In the U.S. each year sells about 10 million cars, while the total number of all vehicles in 2007 was 250 million. If it was in operation 10 million hybrids a similar structure as the Chevy, it would mean the operation of ten nuclear power plants only to recharge the batteries. It is of course a rough estimate without taking into account the possible timing of consumption within the time zones in the U.S.. Now we can speculate on possible scenarios for recovery of the U.S. fleet to hybrids and multiply at will.

Note that the discussion we are still only hybrid cars, where electric cars are more or less only "helping" gas engine. Already, however, we see that the "Positive Electric" is still very far indeed from the perspective of ensuring the production of sufficient quantities of electricity.

However, from our approximate estimate shows that the "big energy" is able to cope with the increase in consumption of electricity for recharging the batteries for hybrid cars. Conversely, assume a massive and largely nocturnal recharge the hybrid battery can help to compensate for variations in consumption during the daily load diagram.
Manages electrical network involving millions of hybrids in the drawer?

Potential problems loom for operators of low voltage networks. Consider a test case. Hundreds of thousands of Americans in large urban agglomerations in the afternoon after working hours by car from work back home in the suburbs, and the first domestic duties for them "to stick" to a car charging cable outlet. Of course it will mean quite a significant local increase in electricity consumption. Moreover, in the U.S. is a low voltage level of voltage 120 V, ie lower than in Europe, which in some way limits the power loads connected to resp. increases the size of the currents in distribution.

Unfavorable factor is also relatively high rate of electricity consumption of contemporaneity (or where large numbers of people will charge the battery at about the same time), which operators of electrical networks generally do not like, because in this case the distributions to dimension the higher current load.

Mass deployment of hybrid vehicles will also mean a substantial change in the existing technical infrastructure and buildings. Consider a parking house with several hundred parking spaces for hybrid cars. Capacitated supply electricity for recharging the batteries will become the most important condition for its function. There is no doubt that this house may have parking requirements for electricity supply as a factory.

"""""""Amidst celebratory articles and discussions of miles, gallons and reducing emissions expire rather simple physical reality, we know already from the primary school: the law of conservation of energy applies always and everywhere. It is clear that reducing fuel consumption in the case of hybrid cars will inevitably mean an increase in electricity consumption, which will be manufactured very high divorce networks and high-voltage and every day "push" through a network of low-voltage batteries to hybrid cars to be on the second day used for ecological mode of transport. A production of electricity, of course, has environmental impacts, including direct and indirect emissions of greenhouse gases.

It is good to recognize these connections, and again we read a somewhat simplified congratulatory articles on the emergence of a new "Zero Emission" era and the giant energy saving""""

Opinion make yourself everyone...
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Last edited by noxman; 09-27-2009 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Can we please leave The President out of this? The Chevy Volt has been on the books for YEARS.

For people that drive over 40 miles a day its a win. Once the car has a battery charge with enough energy to get rolling the small gas engine charges the battery at the claimed rate of 230 MPG. How is this not eco friendly?


Last edited by Jammer; 09-27-2009 at 04:26 PM..
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