Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hypermiling / EcoDriver's Ed
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-01-2014, 08:32 AM   #71 (permalink)
Rat Racer
 
Fat Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Route 16
Posts: 4,150

Al the Third, year four - '13 Honda Fit Base
Team Honda
90 day: 42.9 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,784
Thanked 1,920 Times in 1,246 Posts
Cheap cars especially don't get the right maintenance. It seems that as long as they last until they're paid for, or until they can get rolled into the next car loan, it's good. Most people don't expect to run them for 100,000 or whatever the warranty is, they take that large number as a sign that it'll still be working and under warranty when they ditch it.

__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog44 View Post
Transmission type Efficiency
Manual neutral engine off.100% @MPG <----- Fun Fact.
Manual 1:1 gear ratio .......98%
CVT belt ............................88%
Automatic .........................86%

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 12-01-2014, 09:57 AM   #72 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,428

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 55.44 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 67.41 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,960
Thanked 6,841 Times in 3,553 Posts
Since I've been perusing the Metro/Firefly market for years, I can tell you that a lot of otherwise responsible elderly people buy entry level cars, and then hardly use them. (Unfortunately most -- but not all -- are automatics.)

The trick is finding a low miles one of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtydave View Post
They better take care of them!! I want a used one in a few years!!
Yup, me too.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MetroMPG For This Useful Post:
MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Old 04-29-2015, 11:18 AM   #73 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,428

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 55.44 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 67.41 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,960
Thanked 6,841 Times in 3,553 Posts
niky.... MIVEC?

Dredging up this comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
the upshift puts you just below the MIVEC changeover point
I was under the impression that the Mirage's MIVEC valve control was infinitely variable because it's not a cam profile swap system like the older MIVEC versions (= VTEC for Honda fans).
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 11:24 AM   #74 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,428

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 55.44 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 67.41 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,960
Thanked 6,841 Times in 3,553 Posts
Another CVT vs. 5-speed test: mostly highway

A Mirage Forum member just did an 80 km / 50 mile comparison of a 5-speed car against the CVT, and unlike my test, his route was mostly highway - with the cruise set at 120 km/h / 70 mph.

The 5MT still edged out the CVT's mileage:

Quote:
Route: highway (65%) and suburban driving (25%), with just a small portion in the city (10%). afterwards, i drove my mirage, which is a CVT. both were SE trim with climate control turned off. i did do the exact same route and made sure to do the same speeds at all points (whenever i was able). traffic was the same for both trips.

Results: the manual beat the CVT by about 2-3 mpg for the combined trip. i was surprised to find that it even beat the CVT on the highway. At 70 mph, the MT got 2 mpg better than the CVT.

for the entire trip:
  • 5-speed: 47 mpg (US) / 5 L/100 km
  • CVT: 45 mpg US / 5.2 L/100 km
MirageForum thread for more info: Mileage test between Mirage 5MT and CVT on set route (mostly highway) - MirageForum.com)
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MetroMPG For This Useful Post:
BabyDiesel (04-29-2015), Daox (04-29-2015), MobilOne (05-05-2015), PaleMelanesian (04-30-2015)
Old 04-29-2015, 02:10 PM   #75 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 11,396

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 34.2 mpg (US)

Gramps - '04 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.39 mpg (US)

Don't hit me bro - '05 Toyota Camry LE
Thanks: 7,105
Thanked 2,108 Times in 1,615 Posts
So, how to I respond to people telling me that the modern automatic is more efficient than manuals? "So is driving the speed limit, but you speed anyway, don't you?"

Oh, that does not sound helpful. So, "Only on the EPA test, not in actual driving?"

[Why am I supposed to put question marks not belonging to the quote inside of the quote when I am using a quote to make a question? I like being grammatically correct, but that does not make sense!]
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Xist For This Useful Post:
MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Old 04-29-2015, 02:24 PM   #76 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Missoula, MT
Posts: 2,552

Dark Egg - '12 VW Touraeg
Thanks: 266
Thanked 1,136 Times in 775 Posts
I think what might happen in the EPA test is the acceleration is based on throttle position not a defined rate of acceleration. If they defined the rate of acceleration some cars may not even be able to achieve it. So in the EPA test the automatic is allowed to accelerate more moderately and shifted sooner. The manual is probably also required to be shifted at near it's red line, not short shifted like in this comparison. I also wonder in the EPA test if the manual ever even sees high gear.
car makers love this because it's a way to sell an expensive to buy and expensive to repair automatic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 02:42 PM   #77 (permalink)
Rat Racer
 
Fat Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Route 16
Posts: 4,150

Al the Third, year four - '13 Honda Fit Base
Team Honda
90 day: 42.9 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,784
Thanked 1,920 Times in 1,246 Posts
It's not more efficient.

It's an appliance built to get better numbers than a manual transmission on a dyno while conducting the EPA test, and it does that.

FTL IRL, IMNSHO.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog44 View Post
Transmission type Efficiency
Manual neutral engine off.100% @MPG <----- Fun Fact.
Manual 1:1 gear ratio .......98%
CVT belt ............................88%
Automatic .........................86%

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fat Charlie For This Useful Post:
MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Old 04-29-2015, 08:16 PM   #78 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 589 Times in 401 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Dredging up this comment...



I was under the impression that the Mirage's MIVEC valve control was infinitely variable because it's not a cam profile swap system like the older MIVEC versions (= VTEC for Honda fans).
From what I've seen, there's a dip in the torque curve and a slight bump where the valves switch to "high lift."

Seen here at around 4k - 4.5k rpm:



(yeah, it's all a bunch of wavy lines, but you really feel it when you're banging through the gears on the racetrack!).

If the mechanism had infinitely discrete changes, that burp shouldn't exist. You should be able to adjust lift incrementally so the torque curve is smoother.

Take note, this may not apply equally to US spec cars, since the calibrations are different. And yes, it could be due to other things... but if it looks, smells and feels like "VTEC YO"...
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to niky For This Useful Post:
MetroMPG (05-05-2015), MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Old 04-29-2015, 08:38 PM   #79 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,510

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 40.3 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.12 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.25 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)

F-117 - '10 Proton Arena GLSi
Pickups
Mitsubishi
90 day: 37.82 mpg (US)

Ralica - '85 Toyota Celica ST
90 day: 25.23 mpg (US)

Sx4 - '07 Suzuki Sx4
90 day: 32.21 mpg (US)

F-117 (2) - '03 Citroen Xsara VTS
90 day: 30.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 325
Thanked 447 Times in 316 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersbird View Post
I think what might happen in the EPA test is the acceleration is based on throttle position not a defined rate of acceleration. If they defined the rate of acceleration some cars may not even be able to achieve it. So in the EPA test the automatic is allowed to accelerate more moderately and shifted sooner.
As you can imagine, designing a test that fits all car/trans/engine combinations fairly is not possible.

For the NEDC tests, the cars is required to accelerate in X gear up to Y speed in Z time, slow to Q speed in R time and so on. The tests are done in at a fairly relaxed rate so even the slowest cars can complete them (especially since cars get faster every year and the tests are now quite old).

With an automatic, the test merely require accelerate to Y speed in Z time. The manufacturers can program the shift points as they like. This is why you see cars with robotised manual 'automatics' do better than full manuals that are otherwise identical -the only variable is shift points.

So yes, automatics are just another form of cycle beating.
__________________






  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oldtamiyaphile For This Useful Post:
MetroMPG (05-05-2015), MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Old 05-05-2015, 02:26 PM   #80 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,428

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 55.44 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 67.41 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,960
Thanked 6,841 Times in 3,553 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
For the NEDC tests, the cars is required to accelerate in X gear up to Y speed in Z time, slow to Q speed in R time and so on.
The EPA tests are the same; ie. acceleration is not based on throttle position, but following a speed vs. time trace on a computer screen connected to the dyno.

__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MetroMPG For This Useful Post:
MobilOne (05-05-2015)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com