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Old 08-23-2014, 04:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
California provides hydrogen free to anyone who leases a fuel cell car. You are given a debit card.

The longterm plan is to produce hydrogen from CNG and sequester the carbon dioxide under the Sierra mountains. That seems like a good plan until you remember the mountains were created by earthquakes & eventually the CO2 will likely escape:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos#1986_disaster
Better idea. Sequester the CO2 using a porous or fractured oil reserve to drive the oil out of the rock.

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Old 08-23-2014, 04:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euromodder View Post
Use the CNG straight away, and produce it from biological sources or water + CO2 + excess windmill or solar energy
There is no excess wind energy. All the wind power around here is eagerly bought up by the power company.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I testdrove one, and it felt just like a gasoline Civic..... the $26,000 pricetag was a bit ridiculous though. Even with the cheap $2.20 refill the car would not cover the hybrid premium.... ooops CNG premium.

Plus I've read elsewhere the tank has to be replaced every 5 years de to brittleness. That's worse than a hybrid battery replacement rate (~10 years).
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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CNG is certainly beginning to make more and more economical sense.

Around here I can buy it in filling stations for about $2.50/gge. If I compress it (with a Phill) at home it costs $1.30/gge.

CNG also has another economy advantage: CNG gives you an honest 120 motor octane. It won't knock or ping regardless of compression ratio or spark advance. More compression general yields better efficiency which means better MPG. Practical limit is 13.5:1 compression ratio. Above that pumping losses exceed the thermodynamic gain.

Same with spark advance. In general, more spark advance = more efficiency, but at some point the limit is when the spark advance begins to break conn rods.

CNG's octane rating is so astronomical that even a 21:1 compression ration diesel will not compression ignite it. Natural gas is the one hydrocarbon I can think of that defeats a diesel. "Dual-fuel" engines use a little shot of diesel to compression-ignite and blow-torch the natural gas into combustion.
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
Plus I've read elsewhere the tank has to be replaced every 5 years de to brittleness. That's worse than a hybrid battery replacement rate (~10 years).
Is that for hydrogen or CNG?
Hydrogen enbrittlement is a huge problem for most alloys.
Any high pressure storage vessel is recommended to be tested 5 years after manufacture.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Ooops I was wrong. CNG tanks are now certified for 20 years.
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:32 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
CNG's octane rating is so astronomical that even a 21:1 compression ration diesel will not compression ignite it. Natural gas is the one hydrocarbon I can think of that defeats a diesel. "Dual-fuel" engines use a little shot of diesel to compression-ignite and blow-torch the natural gas into combustion.
I'm a die-hard dieselhead, but I actually consider CNG as a reasonable alternative combined with Diesel due to its cleaner burn.
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:35 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I just discovered a new CNG station.
On 287 between Iowapark, TX and Vernon TX there is a gas station that has CNG. You cant miss it, there is only one gas station on 278 on that stretch of road.
So if you need to go to witchatawfalls there is a CNG station about 30miles down the road or if you have to go from DFW area to Amarillo there is a CNG station on the way, if you can make it that far (I do not know the CNG civics range, not trying to be rude).

Last month I went by there an there were pipe line welders welding the tiniest pipe line I have ever seen near that gas station. Guess the were installing a gas line to do CNG.
I always stop there and get gas, last month they definitely did not have a CNG pump.

Here is the weird thing...
I looked at the pumps price was $2.30/gge, not weird.
But the last person who bought CNG bought 38gge, I think big rigs are using CNG more now. I don't think any on road car, van or pickup can hold any where near even 30gge.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Unless fuel cell technology advances to the point where you can basically bottle hydrogen and transport it more easily than you can pipe and store CNG (which has lower tank pressures and doesn't leak through sold steel walls) at less cost, then converting all that natural gas to hydrogen really doesn't make any kind of economical sense. In the long term, considering that you can make natural gas more simply, cost-effectively and carbon-neutral...(ly?) from biowaste, it's the better way to go.

Still, manufacturers are hedging their bets on hydrogen, and spending lots on it. Whether that's due to incentives or if there's a major paradigm shift in the EV-Fuel cell wars a-coming, only time will tell.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I have seen industrial bio gas setups and even today its not a drop in replacement for natural gas.

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1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
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