The climate change movement: July 28, 1995 to August 14, 2020 RIP

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

This wasn't universal, as it depended on the moral values of each culture. There were cultures where altruism abounded, and war and slavery were either non-existent or not at all how you're depicting them.

You're falling prey to the "my aunt Sally" trap that allows someone to maintain cognitive dissonance. When I am speaking generally, I'm not talking about your aunt Sally who doesn't fit that generalization. If I say people have 10 fingers, you mentioning that aunt Sally has 11 doesn't dismiss the generalization.

If there's some tribe of 500 people on a tropical island that didn't war and engage in slavery, that doesn't mean they had amazing DNA that allowed superior moral character. It means they were isolated and didn't have to abide by the law of the jungle to keep invaders and marauders at bay.

Technology and industry have tried to limit our crimes and vices by offering us many more that do less harm to others, yet we also have fewer altruistic cultures as a result.

Altruistic cultures don't work, because it's not a thing. Communism advertises itself as altruistic, and thing commits the most horrific atrocities because that system is maladapted to humanity's selfishness. There might be a handful of people that behave relatively altruistically, but any system they impose on the mass of selfish people will become a murderous mess.

That's why free markets are the most functional form of commerce, because it assumes selfishness. Any system that doesn't assume the reality of human behavior will be outcompeted by ones that do.

Also, thinking that everyone suffered before the industrial revolution is just wrong. Most families did not have slaves. The world wasn't in a constant state of war either. There were many benefits to such a life style...

This is getting far off the topic of fossil fuels having been responsible for more people and more prosperity than all negative externalities so far, which you have miserably failed to refute, and now you're changing topics.

It's despicable that you're intentionally misinterpreting what I said in a sorry attempt to make me look bad. Nowhere did I say everyone suffered (except 100% of people suffer, so I'm saying it now). Nowhere did I imply most families had slaves, and you're incorrect about constant state of war. There's war right now. The earth continuously has war somewhere. Prior to industrialization, war was confined to where people could walk to.

I suspect that as those who have more power find more ways to keep channeling more of the world's wealth into their pockets then the rest of the world will continue to make less and less until we're back to slavery once again.

Your premise is incorrect- world GDP per capita has been increasing. "Aunt Sally" makes less now is not a refutation of this.

Even if your premise was correct, it does not follow that someone having a lot of money would turn someone else into a slave. Elon's wealth has nothing to do with my wealth (except I bought 1 share of Tesla as a joke). In other words, there's no mechanism where at some level of wealth that my earning approaches zero.

And besides, getting back to the point of climate change, even if the only downside to industrialization were climate change due to tons of CO2 being spewed into the atmosphere, there's no reason why we can't look for and try out alternatives that lower or eliminate that.

Bad ideas are spewed, CO2 is exhausted or exhaled. Where did I say we should not pursue alternatives? In fact, I said the ONLY way CO2 emissions will be curtailed is to find better energy alternatives, and alternatives to the millions of products we consume.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

There's war right now. The earth continuously has war somewhere. Prior to industrialization, war was confined to where people could walk to.

Not according to the archaeological record. Prior to a point in time cities didn't have walls. The only reason they don't have walls today is gunpowder. The gating factor was desertification. Ref:

orgonelab.org
James DeMeo, Saharasia - Orgone
Those are the findings from James DeMeo's Saharasia! James DeMeo's Saharasia is the largest and most in-depth scholarly study on human behavior and social violence around the world which has ever been undertaken. The findings summarized in Prof. DeMeo's book cover the entire globe, from early prehistory into modern times, integrating on world ...

Archive
Saharasia: The 4000 BCE Origins of Child Abuse, Sex-Repression, Warfare ...
Saharasia has at several times in human history been the region from which massive armies marched out to conquer those moister regions lying at its periphery: into Europe, China, India and sub-Saharan Africa. These would be the early Indo-Aryan, Kurgan and Battle-Axe warriors, the Scythians and Huns,

____________________________

Originally Posted by redpoint5

That's why free markets are the most functional form of commerce, because it assumes selfishness. Any system that doesn't assume the reality of human behavior will be outcompeted by ones that do.

Not necessarily.

Wikipedia
Potlatch - Wikipedia
Potlatch is a traditional practice of the Pacific Northwest Coast peoples, involving the distribution or destruction of wealth and valuable items to demonstrate power and status. Learn about the history, culture, and significance of potlatch, as well as its legal and social challenges.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Not necessarily.

Necessarily. That culture is extinct because it was outcompeted.

[freebeard]

Not necessarily.

Their culture was stable and ecologically viable, and they competed well against the Russians and IIRC Spanish but were decimated by European diseases. The Haida had 40-foot dugout war canoes with British brass cannons in the bow.

Have you seen the 1995 Jarmusch movie, Dead Man?

edit: recommended. Farmer>Depp

IMDb
Dead Man (1995) - IMDb
Dead Man: Directed by Jim Jarmusch. With Johnny Depp, Gary Farmer, Crispin Glover, Lance Henriksen. On the run after murdering a man, accountant William Blake encounters a strange Native American man named Nobody who prepares him for his journey into the spiritual world.

[freebeard]

That culture is extinct because it was outcompeted.

Outcompeted on violence. This is the actual premise of Saharasia, the waves of violence out of the Sahara and Gobi reverberated around the world, reaching the [cultural] antipodes with the steam engine. The Trobriand Islands as it turns out.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Necessarily. That culture is extinct because it was outcompeted.

Depending on who you ask, it disappeared by becoming violent and ticking off the wrong countries.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Temperature has risen about 1 degree and seas about 1ft over the last 100 years, which is insanely rapid in geologic terms. It wasn't faster than we could adapt.

Temperature will rise about 1 degree and seas another foot in the next 100 years. Why would we be less capable of adapting given the technological advancements that will occur in the next 100 years? We're somehow going to get less proficient at adapting to various climates? That would only be true if we're cavemen relying on dumb animals to get too close to survive.

Costs exceeding global GDP is false on the face of it. Sure, setting the outdoor thermostat 1 degree cooler like it was 100 years ago might exceed GDP, but building structures in fire prone areas with fire resistance in mind doesn't increase the construction cost much. Not building in flood zones or in hurricane alley costs nothing. Building structures resilient to flooding and hurricanes costs more, but not double or more. Increasing crop yields aren't costing anything. We could tell primitive people to stop killing polar bears if we want a larger population of those useless things.

Where are the people who are going to die if they step foot outside? Seems like a good reason to move if being exposed to outdoor conditions momentarily poses an existential threat. They're obviously wealthy if they can afford 24/7 home care.

* Your temperature predictions have already been exceeded in areas that will impact the entire planet.
* Sea level rise also.
* On the Atlantic coast, it costs $365,000 to move an existing home inland to higher ground.
* 70% of our building materials come from Canada and Mexico.
* Most people can't touch the current prices because they've been inflated by the destruction caused by fires, floods, hurricanes, atmospheric rivers, tornadoes, etc. all accelerating due to climate change.
* New Orleans has never recovered from Katrina.
* You might have noticed that California insurance companies were cancelling fire policies as their customers homes burnt to the ground.
* Some will have to walk away, defaulting on their mortgage payments, and property taxes, jeopardizing local government revenue / budgets. Municipal bond failures.
* The smartest guys in the room predict that climate 'costs' WILL exceed the entire global GDP at some point. The USA is already in trouble.
* Future 100-mph Santa Ana winds must be factored in to any reconstruction scenario. Atmospheric energy is only going to increase, and it's 'non-linear'.
* 'Future-proofing' all construction is currently a 'problem' with no 'solution.'
* Global food production is in decline. You need to disabuse yourself of any notion of a new, 'green revolution.' STEM can't keep up.
* If you followed 'climate', you'd know that the polar bear are just another 'canary in the coal mine.' It's the loss of sea ice that will kill billions.
* The loss of major river headwaters will kill billions more.
* If you ever read what I post you'd already know that Guatemalans are dropping dead at work, trying to get sugar to STARBUCKS. The heat-index is so high that they cannot remain hydrated, and fall over dead from renal failure. Same for some in Maricopa County, Arizona. Dallas Texas. Europe. Africa. They're not 'wealthy', already living on the margins.
* The monkeys of Kenya have already taken to 'caves' to escape the killer heat, but they'll all be extinct by 2030 as heat increases.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by aerohead

* Your temperature predictions have already been exceeded in areas that will impact the entire planet.
* Sea level rise also.
* On the Atlantic coast, it costs $365,000 to move an existing home inland to higher ground.
* 70% of our building materials come from Canada and Mexico.
* Most people can't touch the current prices because they've been inflated by the destruction caused by fires, floods, hurricanes, atmospheric rivers, tornadoes, etc. all accelerating due to climate change.
* New Orleans has never recovered from Katrina.
* You might have noticed that California insurance companies were cancelling fire policies as their customers homes burnt to the ground.
* Some will have to walk away, defaulting on their mortgage payments, and property taxes, jeopardizing local government revenue / budgets. Municipal bond failures.
* The smartest guys in the room predict that climate 'costs' WILL exceed the entire global GDP at some point. The USA is already in trouble.
* Future 100-mph Santa Ana winds must be factored in to any reconstruction scenario. Atmospheric energy is only going to increase, and it's 'non-linear'.
* 'Future-proofing' all construction is currently a 'problem' with no 'solution.'
* Global food production is in decline. You need to disabuse yourself of any notion of a new, 'green revolution.' STEM can't keep up.
* If you followed 'climate', you'd know that the polar bear are just another 'canary in the coal mine.' It's the loss of sea ice that will kill billions.
* The loss of major river headwaters will kill billions more.
* If you ever read what I post you'd already know that Guatemalans are dropping dead at work, trying to get sugar to STARBUCKS. The heat-index is so high that they cannot remain hydrated, and fall over dead from renal failure. Same for some in Maricopa County, Arizona. Dallas Texas. Europe. Africa. They're not 'wealthy', already living on the margins.
* The monkeys of Kenya have already taken to 'caves' to escape the killer heat, but they'll all be extinct by 2030 as heat increases.

When I was a kid there were less than 15,000 polar bears, now only 40,000 remain.....

[freebeard]

* 'Future-proofing' all construction is currently a 'problem' with no 'solution.'

Myopia.

Richard Buckminster Fuller devoted his life to putting tools on the shelf that humankind would be needing later.

R. Buckminster Fuller was an American architect, inventor, and philosopher known for his innovative designs, particularly the geodesic dome, and for coining terms like "Spaceship Earth" and "Dymaxion." He dedicated his life to solving global problems through design and technology, publishing over 30 books and holding 28 patents. Wikipedia

Synergetics [is greater than] tribology.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

When I was a kid there were less than 15,000 polar bears, now only 40,000 remain.....

Worldwide animal populations have dropped by over 70% in the past 50 years. Single cases don't point out the worldwide problem. It's like saying I don't get hurricanes in Colorado, so they must not be a problem.