The Concept of Ownership

[Arragonis]

Just out of interest, and I asked this before on a taxes thread but didn't get real numbers - just how much are people paying in :

- Income tax
- property "tax"

etc.

For example I see valuations here - what does that mean in terms of tax in the colonies (or indeed the Commonwealth) ?

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Good idea!

Make sure its real beer though.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Just out of interest, and I asked this before on a taxes thread but didn't get real numbers - just how much are people paying in :

- Income tax
- property "tax"

etc.

For example I see valuations here - what does that mean in terms of tax in the colonies (or indeed the Commonwealth) ?

Income taxes are all over the map; there are brackets with different amounts of withholding depending on how much you net. If one has lots of deductible expenses they can offset their gross income; of course my favorites are the child and dependent deductions that force the rest of us to subsidize breeders.

I think basically we have the lower income class paying no income taxes (or even getting PAID at tax time) if they've reproduced enough. This is in addition to qualifying for assistance programs of all description, including help for food, rent, gas, child care, and who knows what else but only if you have the spawn. Without them you can go live under a bridge for all the govt cares. The middle class naturally gets soaked the hardest with probably most paying about 30% in??? for income taxes only. The wealthy technically have the highest tax brackets but then they are the ones who can afford to hire tax and investment professionals to sniff out and utilize any of the 500,000 loopholes that are available in that strata. One suspects the real tax burden on them isn't as onerous as they tend to make it seem.

Property taxes are all over the map too. Live in an area of relatively cheap real estate like me and the tax could be 5% of it's value every year (so, around every 20+ years or so I will have given the govt more money than I paid for the house itself); areas where the typical house is worth 5x what mine is (very common) do not see tax bills 5x what mine are- they are less than 5x. It is also highly dependent on what State one is in and what flavor of retards one's local govt consists of, but 99% of the time they are infatuated with growth and will stop at nothing to spend everyone else's money on expanding the infrastructure- with schools being the elephant in the room- without much regard for what the residents in any particular area may want... although as often as not, the residents are like minded to this growth thing and are willing partners in expanding the sprawl and congestion network.

There is a measure called "Tax Freedom Day" where supposedly the average American has finally paid his debt to the govt and the rest of the year's income is his. I think that includes the myriad other taxes though, like sales and whatnot. And we are up to what- in May sometime?- having worked from Jan 1 to TF Day for the govt.

[user removed]

I doubt there is anyone that actually knows every tax they pay, including fees and other abominations of the word hidden as a tax.

Since we own everything at least we don't pay interest.

Fed income 13% last year
Social Security and medicare 7.65% (unless self employed-then double that amount)
State income about 5%
Other taxes
Property-home
Property-vehicles
License fees- another tax-state and local
Tax on meals at restaurants 10%
State and local sales 5%
Every utility bill has at least one tax
Tolls on bridges
Gasoline tax-about 35cents per gallon
Internet connection tax-probably both state and local
Tax on vehicle purchase 3.2% (not property tax)
State license tax
Title transfer fee (fee my arse-more tax)
Boat tax property and license
Tax on gross reciepts for business (whether you make or loose money)
Capital gains tax
Estate tax
Tax on title transfers for property
Sewer connection fee (about $6000 here)
Water connection fee (not sure but at least $1000)

Probably many more I forgot.

regards
Mech

[gone-ot]

...how'd that IRS-1040Z form go, something like:

1) How much did you make?
2) Hand it ALL over!

[wdb]

Go get a beer? Talk about paying taxes - alcohol taxes are nuts!

Make mine a cream stout please.

I'm of two minds on the whole property tax thing.

1. I'm perfectly happy not having to sleep with one eye open and a hand on the 12ga. I'm perfectly happy to be able to drive to the store on plowed roads within hours of the most major storm. And so on. In short, I don't mind paying for the maintenance of civil society and provision of basic needs best provided by centralized entities, such as roads.

2. Property taxes aren't the way to do accomplish #1, and haven't been for a hundred years or so. Taxing property dates to colonial times, when property owners were the only people with money. I'd much rather acheive the same end with something like a consumption or sales tax. Some might say that can't be done at a local level, to which I respond, yo - this is the digital age - throw some processors and a little bandwidth together, and you sure as heck can do it.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Hundreds if not thousands of people lie awake at night dreaming of ways to separate property owners from their money. I was lieing awake thinking about how little there was I could do about it. :/

Yup.
Taxed to death ... and beyond !

In Belgium we're already ranking high amongst the folks who pay the most direct and indirect taxes, but it's only going to get worse as our state budget badly needs some balancing.

Very little you can do about it, as the whole political spectrum wants taxes of some sorts. We've only ever had 1 party who proposed a single (but very high) goods tax. Nothing much became of them.

[euromodder]

Talking taxes on a forum with Europeans ?

If it wasn't so sad, this might make y'all feel good.

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Fed income 13% last year
State income about 5%

37.6 %
(but every extra buck I'll make is taxed at 50%)

Social Security and medicare 7.65%

8 %
(One's employer has to pay excessive additional fees.)

Tax on meals at restaurants 10%
State and local sales 5%

21% sales tax on just about everything - some things are 6%

Every utility bill has at least one tax

We tend to pay more for associated taxes & costs, than for the utility in question.
In addition to 6% or 21% taxes.

Gasoline tax-about 35cents per gallon

We're paying roughly
x 2 that amount for gas,
x 1.5 that amount for diesel,
on every LITER rather than gallon (which also equals 3,785 liter).

Internet connection tax-probably both state and local

21%

Tax on vehicle purchase 3.2% (not property tax)

21%

In addition to a registration tax 40 tot 10.000 euro come January.
To be paid whenever the vehicle is registered, or re-registered after being sold.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

I doubt there is anyone that actually knows every tax they pay...

It is also true that they do not know every benefit they gain, and tend to underestimate it by a wide margin, in my swag.

But it would be nice if things were simpler, or at least spelled out and folks run out on a rail for being sneaky and over complicated about it. The complications lead to ambiguities lead to a lot of bullcrap debates, as well as opportunities to pinch from the pot.

[user removed]

The US system as it is today has changed the "of the people, by the people and for the people" to "of the attorneys, by the attorneys, for the attorneys".

GE pays no taxes on 14 Bill in profit with a 57,000 page tax return.

Congress thinks they can punish the "rich" by increasing their income taxes. I paid $3000 in income taxes in 1973, more than John D Rockefeller. His net worth was 175 million, mine was probably less than $2500.

The hypocrisy of the tax the rich is compounded exponentially by the fact that that would only make it more difficult for those climbing the ladder the reach the top. It does not touch those worth billions already. They have no need for any income when the tax burden gets ridiculous.

Study the history of income taxes to see the effects of higher rates, but understand that decades ago you did not have the many taxes that are imposed today on consumption and home ownership. The ultimate hypocrisy is to blather about relieving the poor of tax burdens, while advocating them paying a much higher rate on everything if they dare to try to climb the ladder of personal net worth.

As Frank stated earlier, in my case I built my house, but even though it was paid for when completed, it will never be paid for and could eventually be confiscated by the state for non payment of taxes, while I am sitting in a nursing home, in a coma, on life support (and don't respond assuming I can not afford it although I would rather be suffocated).

If I posted what I really thought about the current govt in the US, including both "parties" I would probably get visited by the FBI or Secret Service, but hey I am old and not to longer left on this world, so lets just pass the bill on to the next generations, right?

regards
Mech