Edison2 Very Light Car: Chapter 2

[XprizeRoadTrip]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

The last communication was from Brad Jaeger who, I believe, was an engineer on your original design which won the prize. My focus is powertrain related and I have patented my design. I was originally hoping to talk with Mr. Jaeger who seemd to be interested in my IVT drive system. I guess it is just outside of your current project focus.

Thanks for the response anyway.

regards
Mech

Is this you?

The D-Drive Infinitely Variable Geared Transmission - YouTube

[user removed]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Ride122609

This is the only thing we have on u-tube. Fixed stroke-not adjustable as it is in the patent, running on compressed air at about 2k RPM without vibration. Patent number is US 7677208. In wheel hydraulic variable stroke drive.

regards
Mech

[XprizeRoadTrip]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

http://www.youtube.com/user/Ride122609

This is the only thing we have on u-tube. Fixed stroke-not adjustable as it is in the patent, running on compressed air at about 2k RPM without vibration. Patent number is US 7677208. In wheel hydraulic variable stroke drive.

regards
Mech

So it's an in-wheel compressed air drive. Looks like that video is three years old. If so, have you gotten this working in a vehicle or driving a significant load? That would be cool to see. If you have, have you calculated MPG from that testing? If you haven't calculated MPG, what's the typical power requirement to "charge" a compressed air drivetrain and what's the typical range for that. I've always been curious, but never looked it up.

I believe all VLC wheels are occupied by in-wheel suspension. That may be one reason you didn't hear back. Another may be, as far as I know, Edison2 has never considered a compressed air drivetrain.

Everyone - there's still an open invitation to comment on the images. Just click on the link above each image. Comments period closes down after this week.

[pete c]

OM, that is a cool drive system. Do you have a thread here about it? How would you control the lever that adjusts stroke length, I assume it is spinning with the wheel.

[user removed]

The hub is fixed so the stroke position is controlled by moving the journal which goes through the fixed hub. It would be adjusted hydraulically. Stroke position can go from one direction to 0 (no stroke=neutral) to the other direction wich would be regenerate or reverse. The video shows it running on compressed air but it is designed to work as a hydraulic drive, which could be located in the wheel, or inboard if you wanted to use a half shaft.

Va Tech's calculations showed 35 HP and 385 pounds feet of torque from 0 speed, per wheel. That is with a piston diameter of 1 inch. Increase the piston diameter and the power goes up in direct proportion to the increased surface area of the piston. 4 of the Tech configuration drives would provide plenty of power for a Mercedes Sprinter size and capacity vehicle.

The air powered demonstration illustrated one absolute necessity, it has to be balanced to function as an in wheel drive, even if inboard it still has to be balanced, and the video shows it is absolutely vibration free. It is sitting on a frame machine with only my hand holding it in postion, running at an estimated 2k RPM on shop air supply, with absolutely no vibration whatsoever. That would equal about 160 MPH in a vehicle depending on tire diameter.

The drive needs no clutch, since you begin to stroke it in the highest ratio and continue to the lower ratio depending on power demand, it provides it's own clutching action.

In the process of researching the patent, I found this design, dating back to the late 1800s, by Arthur Rigg, who was once the President of the Royal Society of Engineers in England. I did not know about the Rigg Water Engine when I first filed the patent application. In that time frame in England manufacturing plants used pressurized water for power and paid for the water per unit of volume. Riggs Engine reduced the displacement for lower power levels, just like mine, but the era of water powered factories was soon replaced with electric power.

Water Engines: Page 3

When I first contacted Mr. Jaeger, I offered to come to his location and show him my design and galdly discuss it with any who was interested. The offer still stands. Since I am retired and live in Williamsburg the trip is 2-3 hours for me.

There are literally thousands of applications for this design, outside the transportation application. Tech calculated the efficiency at 93%. I have a 82 page report from their Engineering school where a group of 8 senior engineering students looked at the design and did a number of calculations concerning stresses and other factors that would affect the practicality of implementation.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

One application would be to use a large version of this drive to pump off peak power, using water, into a reservoir, increasing the level of water in the reservoir. The energy potential of that same water could be reapplied for peak power generation. With an overall efficiency of around 85% you would have energy storage that could be created with lower cost off peak power and used for on peak power. This would allow greater on peak production without increasing capacity, or using more efficient capacity that is available. It's the only way I know to store electrical energy and would use the existing facitliies (reservoirs). One of the most efficient power generation capabilities is hydroelectric, which is actually solar (evaporation) power and you usually get rain when direct solar is not available.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

In another article Arthur Rigg compares his water engine to a turbine. Turbines can be stopped and rendered less efficient when the load is increased beyond their design limits. If you do that with a Rigg design the engine just stops and consumes no "fuel" which is water elevated above the turbine.

regards
Mech

[pete c]

Was just reading something about edison's eventual market car.

I kept reading about how they had to make this compromise and that. How it had to have acceptable levels of interior trim, AC, etc....

I get that. I just hope that an 800 lb 250cc car doesn't become an 1800 lb 1250cc one.

Would such a vehicle be better than anything currently out there?

Sure it would. It would still beat the pants off anything currently available, mpg-wise. But, it could be more, or should I say, less.

Maybe they should build THAT car. I just hope they also build one as close to the original as possible. One that doesn't have "acceptable" levels of interior trim, AC or a cup holder. Well, maybe a cup holder. Make it a two seater with a 400cc NA single (cheaper to produce than the 250 turbo).

I believe such a vehicle could be produced for below 15 grand. Maybe well below. I read somewhere that the 4 passenger vehicle's price objective is around 25K.

I am sure they will sell at that price, but to tightwads like me and plenty others on this board, it will never financial sense, so long as there is a steady supply of old beaters out there which can be bought for pocket change.

We cheap SOBs won't fork over 25K. But half that? Well, now you at least have our attention.

[NeilBlanchard]

We their production chassis very soon. It is quite likely that they will have an electric version and a hybrid version. This fourth version will be a bit larger and slightly heavier - but the electric version gets about 245MPGe which is more than 2X as efficient as the 102MPGe 250cc turbo X-Prize car; even though the electric version weighs 1140 pounds.

Their target price is $20K, by the way. You should watch the video of Oliver Kuttner at Green@Google - he goes into a LOT of detail about production issues and how they will keep the weight down to a minimum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06wY7jGu1O0

[pete c]

I have watched the video. It is excellent. I hope Oliver is able to bring us the car at something under 1200 lbs. It is just the pessimist in me that is worried that the production model morphs into something more like a conventional car.

I also hope that they will have a barebones model which does everything possible to keep costs down for us tightwads. 20K, for this cheapskate, is still a lot of money. I can buy a 1500 dollar car once every three years for an awful long time on that kinda dough.

Is there any more info on the hybrid? In his video he made a pretty good case for hybrids not making much sense in a thousand pound car. I wonder if it will be a series hybrid which is very simple but not as efficient or a parallel? Are there plans for a straight ICE powered model?