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Old 11-18-2010, 03:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't see the current J1772 approach as bad.

The obvious downside is that the connectors are between outrageously expensive and unavailable. But the only inexpensive power connectors regularly used outdoors that I can think of are used to hook up boats at dock. And those aren't cheap, especially when you move above 30 amps.

The big plus is that the base power is a standard 220V at 30 amps and it's a trivial pilot circuit to turn it on. You only need a smart circuit if you want to draw more power.

Just plan on 220V at under 30 amps for charging now, and buy a J1772 connector pair when they drop in price. By the time the higher power modes are actually standardized, there will likely be an inexpensive module to handle the smart side.

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Old 11-18-2010, 04:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What! no public EV charging in Sweden. I thought your country was trying to be petrol free?
Well... so far the politicians have bought the natural gas, and e85 hype... They are fine for what they are, but considering that people buy "flexifuel" whatever, get the tax breaks and then run them on regular gas is to me just bogus...

Yeah, the idea's are noble but the guys making the rules are as much clueless on this side of the pond as on yours... Trying to register and insure a homebrew EV around here is like a chess game where the opponent know the rules and you dont... And when the opponent doesn't know the rules he makes them up... But I'm learning...
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't see the current J1772 approach as bad.
Standardization is a good thing. It's just that as it is right now, the J1772 has been a very expensive connector.

If a person was to build an EV from scratch right now, they COULD put a J1772 connector on their car, BUT that would then only work at official charging stations.

That still wouldn't allow them to charge from standard outlets. Most charging goes on at home, so either a J1772 OUTLET would have to be installed in the garage, or have a dedicated adapter, converting from J1772 to something more standard. (That's what all the new factory-bult EVs will have - J1772 connections, with a adapter carried in the trunk to allow to connect to 120V AC)

Tesla owners have a "variety pack" of power adapters available to them in the Tesla on-line store.

Many less-expensive home-brew electric cars only have 120V AC chargers on them. They work fine. They are less expensive. It seems wrong to have to buy a higher power, more expensive charger just to be able to use a public charging station.

Vehicles like NEVs almost never have anything more than a 16A 120V charger on them.

Charging stations are also NOT inexpensive. Many of them are around $5000 or so. It doesn't seem right to spend that kind of money on a glorified electric outlet, that I can't even plug my car into.

My two cents: I am more than happy just having access to a plain old electric outlet. For all the new cars coming out that will need a lot of juice, just make sure the charging stations support both J1772 level two charging and Edison plug 15 amp 120V AC level 1 charging.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well... so far the politicians have bought the natural gas, and e85 hype...
I'm very opposed to using E85. There isn't enough corn to make it work for everyone -- just E10 mandated in parts of the U.S. caused overall food prices to rise dramatically. To see the total effect don't just look at corn prices. Other foods were substituted for corn, causing an overall ripple effect. It's not a big deal where food is 5% of a household budget, but it has a much bigger effect elsewhere.

As far as local inspections, it's easy to understand why the rules don't make sense. Modifying cars is "bad", but it used to be so common the politicians had to allow it a little bit. EVs are "good", but that idea doesn't fit into the rules. After all, you went and removed the catalytic converter, right? And all of the oxygen sensors! Where is the evaporative emissions cannister? I'll bet the gas cap doesn't even hold pressure.
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Old 11-19-2010, 01:16 AM   #25 (permalink)
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djbecker E85 is not the problem its how most is being made. There is a company that makes their ethanol from bad soda pop and juice. Then fuel is then mixed as E10 and sold. There are other companies that make ethanol from waste products, many things that would otherwise end up in landfill. As for crops grown things like cattails can produce 4X more fuel per acre then corn and grow even better in sewage water in turn cleaning the water. Many people consider cattails a weed because of how well it grows.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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At the electric auto meeting last night there was talk about a Leviton charge station that costs about $500, then the conversation turned to the topic of the charge stations being slightly more then a high priced extension cord, the fancy part of them of course is that you can stick the end of it in your cup of coffee or drop it in a puddle or lick it and the end is dead until you plug it in to the car, not sure how accurate it is but apparently the car has to send a signal (someone said square wave 24v, not sure if it was a joke tho) to the charge station before it will turn on, this keeps someones cup of coffee from tricking it in to turning on.
either way, $2,000 for a cord seems like someone is making a killing.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The Leviton is one of the cheapest charging stations out there right now.

ShorePower is another company making stations. They already make them for boat docks, so they know what they are doing about not dropping ends in water, seawater corrosion, etc.

Yep, glorified electric outlets.

My concern is that the cost of the stations is such a turn-off to places that would otherwise consider getting them. The only way I really see this working is with big companies that write it off as an advertising expense. (Look at us! We are eco-friendly! Our employees can charge at work!)

It looks like NRG is going to be the first company to start up any sort of an area-wide array of charging stations, in Dallas.
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Old 11-19-2010, 02:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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... the fancy part of them of course is that you can stick the end of it in your cup of coffee or drop it in a puddle or lick it and the end is dead until you plug it in to the car, not sure how accurate it is but apparently the car has to send a signal (someone said square wave 24v, not sure if it was a joke tho) to the charge station before it will turn on, this keeps someones cup of coffee from tricking it in to turning on.
The "24 volt square wave" is a pretty accurate description.

The most basic turn-on circuit is a resistor and diode to get moderate power out. And this is about as simple as it can be made. A square wave is used to make certain that the diode is in the circuit, not mud or dirt that happens to be exactly the right resistance.

There are future plans to communicate billing info over the same signaling circuit, but I think they should delay the effort to standardize that. Once money exchange is being talked about, all of non-technical players come out of the woodwork trying to change the standard so that they somehow get a little slice of each payment.

Besides, why should the car be billed for the charge? When I'm at the gas pump I can get gas with cash, credit card, and RFID sensor. And I can put gas in my friend's car or a rental car just as easily as my own.
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Old 11-20-2010, 02:49 AM   #29 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Tweety;204811]Well... so far the politicians have bought the natural gas, and e85 hype...

Indeed when I was in Sweden I saw some E85 stations but the Stockholm area was supposed to be getting over 1,000 public charging stations. The ones I saw were green poles sort of looking like green industrial flower stems and they had just a standard Schuko style plug (not the Mennekes or J1772)

It was being promoted by one of the major utility companies of which the name escapes me at the moment...
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Old 11-20-2010, 06:08 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well... so far the politicians have bought the natural gas, and e85 hype...
Indeed when I was in Sweden I saw some E85 stations but the Stockholm area was supposed to be getting over 1,000 public charging stations. The ones I saw were green poles sort of looking like green industrial flower stems and they had just a standard Schuko style plug (not the Mennekes or J1772)

It was being promoted by one of the major utility companies of which the name escapes me at the moment...
Yeah I know... But that's like comparing New York vs the rest of the US... Granted it makes sense to start in a town for EV's and Stockholm is the largest... But why ONLY Stockholm? I live in Malmoe, Swedens third largest town, wich has a total of 2 puplic charging stations... I'm responsible for one of them, the other one is outside the largest utility companys building...

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