Feasability of an Electric Insight

[Stubby79]

[QUOTE=freebeard;546128]


That's one sweet looking piece of machinery!

[freebeard]

What Toyota's engineers do is indistinguishable from magic.

The magnets buried in the laminations reduces back-EMF at high RPMs. I'd never open mine up lest iron filings fly in from all over the neighborhood.

I'm less excited by the open differential since that little oopsie on black ice.

[sidecar]

Originally Posted by freebeard

What Toyota's engineers do is indistinguishable from magic. .

maybe this is relevant..

Pretty sure Ive seen mentioned that Prius 200 volt battery is bridged by 3 series connected diodes which increase voltage to an absolute max of 600 (200+200+200) volts, with a more normal 500 volt operating voltage. 500V becomes the working voltage, or the voltage the inverter is able to continuously supply.

Incidentally the IC engine of XW20 is 1500cc 76hp, and electric supply to 2 motors provides MG1 and MG2 is 67hp @1200 RPM with 295 pound-feet of torque for a net of 110hp.

It sounds like this is similar to how your system is meant to work?

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by jray3

Other than " at least 50 miles" in the original post, I haven't seen Natalya define the essential mission parameters before folks got in the weeds on technical details. How far, how fast, and how much $?

Right, so first is try to find a cheap G1 with drivetrain and IMA issues. I'm talking EGR valve failure, high miles, P1449, 2nd gear grind, damaged ISB, etc. It should be relatively easy to find a car that was not maintained properly and has most//all of those issues. Or even better would be a G1 with a seized engine.

Part out any good engine//IMA components.

I probably want to go with the original manual transmission box because I can't construct a drivetrain. If the car has transmission problems I've never fixed those but I think that I have some chances since the procedure is so well-documented and I personally know some people who've done a transmission rebuild on this car.

I know I said 50 miles in OP but it realistically probably needs 70 or 80 mile range my work commute is 24 miles 1 way, I'd be really pushing it at 50. This means extra batteries and//or some kind of regen. I do hypermile (I'll regularly sit in the right lane going 50-55) and I'd be open to aeromods on the car and like I mentioned before, stiff springs on all 4 corners + extra batteries.

A helpful option I have is that my boss would totally be okay if I plugged in the car at work. I also live in the south so if there were a way to stick solar panels on the roof + hood to get maybe 1 or 2 extra miles worth of charge while it sits in the sun all day (our parking lot faces south) that'd be cool too.

Do I NEED this car? Thankfully, no, I have a perfectly fine G2 and I have another G1 which, aside from getting damaged by some idiot doing a U-turn, is completely mechanically sound. This means I can play the long game waiting for good deals on stuff and doing things over and over again to improve on previous iterations.

I guess my goals are:
1 - Do something fun
2 - 60-70 miles when hypermiling
3 - Save the shell of some mechanically worthless G1 Insight from the scrapyard
4 - Start with a budget of $5000 or less
5 - Learn new skills in the process

Originally Posted by jray3

30 kW may get you there, but from experience, I'll say that 170 kW of Zilla power is a helluva lot more fun! Besides throttle ramp rate, clutch selection is a good way to limit drivetrain abuse (better to slip than shred), and the clutch is an important safety feature as well.
There are two Gen 1 Insight conversions in Portland Oregon; Gary Graunke and John Wayland.
An AC-driven car with regen adds up to 10% range and a new dimension of driving excitement, but the cost/benefit ratio winner is still a series motor and powerful controller, especially since there are so many secondhand bargains these days. The 11" is not only overkill, but would be far less responsive than a 6" or 8" motor. I wouldn't go even 9" unless you're going for a Zilla and beefier tranny.
LEAF modules are about the easiest, most affordable battery option for DIY, but CALB cells will last longer and fit in many spaces better.

I think I'm going to have to go direct current + controller for simplicity. Is this like totally incapable of getting regen? I don't know much about motors but I was pretty sure that if you spin a DC motor it produces current. Or is the issue capturing it w/o destroying the controller//batteries?

Originally Posted by jray3

First item to buy for your project: a towbar, dolly, or trailer.
Good Luck,
Jay

Yes absolutely.

[freebeard]

That's a perfectly cromulent set of goals.

My concern with the plan is with getting a poorly maintained donor. It would have bad wheel bearings, &etc.

And using a transmission. I ran the numbers in a thread somewhere, but by using a single-speed polyphase DC drivetrain, I had a budget of 450lb for batteries without exceeding the Beetle's stock weight; IOW by removing 550lbs of weight.

Compare fabricating an adapter to mount the motor to the Insight transaxle to adapting Honda and Toyota axle shafts.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Natalya

I know I said 50 miles in OP but it realistically probably needs 70 or 80 mile range my work commute is 24 miles 1 way, I'd be really pushing it at 50.

A helpful option I have is that my boss would totally be okay if I plugged in the car at work. I also live in the south so if there were a way to stick solar panels on the roof + hood to get maybe 1 or 2 extra miles worth of charge while it sits in the sun all day (our parking lot faces south) that'd be cool too.

I always personally recommend people add at least 50% as a 'safety buffer'.

Cold batteries in winter will perform less .. old batteries will perform less .. and unexpected life things , etc.

Soo , if 80 miles ..
If can charge at work .. Need at least ~40 miles +50% = ~60 miles
If can't charge at work ~80 +50% = ~120 miles

If ~60Miles @ ~5m/kwh = ~12kwh usable .. if middle ~80% (avoid top / bottom 10% ) = ~15kwh battery.

If ~120Miles @ ~5m/kwh = ~24kwh usable .. if middle ~80% (avoid top/bottom 10% ) = ~30kwh battery.

Based on my (to date) measurements and experiments with solar on the insight .. the most one could probably expect to get from covering the whole gen1 Insight would be about ~5 Miles per day on yearly average .. more in longer summer day , shorter in winter days .. doable .. and that solar energy will beat on it anyway.

Originally Posted by Natalya

This means I can play the long game waiting for good deals on stuff and doing things over and over again to improve on previous iterations.

Sounds fantastic way to approach it.

[freebeard]

I took this picture last weekend. Around back he had signage with the details on miles/day_of_sunlight. Only now, I realize I could have taken a picture of that too.

[Natalya]

Time to get this project rolling.

First thing to do is figure out the legality of converting a car in Georgia to all-electric and how to register the car. In my county I have to have emissions tested every year. If I replace the ECM and everything else because I'm going all-electric then there's no way for them to do an emissions test.

I'll be giving a call to the Georgia Environmental Protection Division tomorrow 404-363-7000 to figure out what they'll want from me once the conversion is complete so that I can get the car registered properly.

Side-Note: Car will need to be able to go 55 MPH to be certified. I'm not sure what the other requirements are.

Once I get those requirements figured out then I need to source the donor car. I've already found two candidates nearby and talked to one of the owners.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Natalya

First thing to do is figure out the legality of converting a car in Georgia to all-electric and how to register the car.

Some other possible useful sources of information on Georgia legalities of aa BEV conversion .. might be:

Back in 2010 there was a company in Georgia that did conversions .. don't know if they are still around:

Electric Car Conversions
Phone Number = (404) 488-1413
Address = 615 Wedgewood Dr Woodstock, Georgia 30189-6161

Also:
Electrify Atlanta Group:
Electric Vehicle information for Atlanta and Georgia - www.ElectrifyAtlanta.com

Also:
Local Arm of the Electric Auto Association:
EV Club of the South
EV Club of the South - Home

And .. some electric companies around there offer discounts for Plug Vehicle Owners:
https://www.georgiapower.com/about-e...ehicles.cshtml

[Piotrsko]

don't forget to talk to the emmissions appeals/judges over at the DMV for guidance.

FWIW in Nevada it is just an inspection to see that all the old fuel system components are gone so you can't easily convert back to gas. It is assumed that the car was legal before, so except for propulsion system, it is legal now. However YMMV.

BTW we had a laugh when the newbie judge wanted to sniff my tailpipe. Downside: his boss was a GM EV1 engineer so I spent 4 hours doing show & tell.