Feasability of an Electric Insight

[Natalya]

@IamIan:
This is such a wealth of information, thanks very much.

I was thinking I could use the custom stiff rear springs and possibly GAZ shocks that are now made for the car and then it would be okay to go a little above OEM weight.

Do your figures include removing the A/C or is this for a car that never had it? That's an additional ~20 kg.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Stubby79

Good thing those little motors are "up to" 98% efficient...that's an awful lot of power for such a little motor to have to put up with!

30KW is plenty, in my mind, for such a light, aerodynamic car.

Miles zx40 ev is 12kw peak and weighs more than an insight.

It will climb any hill, just rather slowly

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Natalya

@IamIan:
This is such a wealth of information, thanks very much.

Very welcome , any time. .. Glad to help.

Originally Posted by Natalya

I was thinking I could use the custom stiff rear springs and possibly GAZ shocks that are now made for the car and then it would be okay to go a little above OEM weight.

Sounds good

Even just +10% of ~1,800 Lbs is another ~180 Lbs (~82kg) to work with.

Originally Posted by Natalya

Do your figures include removing the A/C or is this for a car that never had it? That's an additional ~20 kg.

A/C no .. and yes .. you could shave even more than that ~180kg off if you want.

From what I've been told/read .. the ~180kg number includes:
ICE + All support systems
Transmission 5 speed Transaxel
IMA + all it's pieces (motor, controllers, batteries, DC-DC , etc.)

You'll need a DC-DC of some type .. so you'll have to add some back in for that .. and unless you are doing a direct to shaft type , you'll probably have to bring back in the Transmission .. of course your Electric motor will have some weight too .. etc.

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'm thinking that 30kw continuous figure might be a little on the weak side if you live in a mountainous area. I'd go very slightly larger.

Of course can go as high as one wishes , they make lots of very power electric motors .. just a personal preference thing.

Just for comparison/perceptive:

At near ~OEM Weight .. 30kw continuous (with no wind) can hold constant speed up a ~30% (~17deg) slope at ~60MPH.

The OEM Insight ICE+IMA combined .. (any gear you like) .. doesn't get above 30kw output (even in rich with 100% max IMA Assist) , until you are over about ~2,500 RPMs .. and without IMA Assist the OEM ICE alone , even in rich burn and V-Tech doesn't get above ~30kw output until up near ~3,500 RPMs.

If you have a OBDII device you can data log with .. Like an OBDII-C&C + Laptop .. you can log your RPM usage window .. and of course each person's route / conditions / methods will vary .. but when I logged this for myself in my Insight for a year , I got .. I used a peak of over ~2k RPM only ~36.8% of the time (about ~25kw Max ICE+Max IMA Assist) .. and only used a peak over ~3k RPMs ~0.003% of the time (about ~36kw Max ICE and Max IMA Assist) .. soo , it would be ok for my usage pattern .. of course YMMV.

[sidecar]

Originally Posted by Natalya

I think the main advantages of using one of these cars for an EV conversion are they're very cheap, light, and aerodynamic. Homemade EVs usually have poor range, and I wouldn't be able to use it for much if I couldn't do atleast 50 miles in it. But maybe I could sell it to someone else who lived in town and didn't need to drive as much if I just couldn't get the range out if it that I needed.

In the interests of disclosure I have little idea of Insight, Im basing my responses on the plug in Prius with the knowledge that kits for PEV Prius exist and have been successful.

Definitely current hybrids are a good channel to a full EV. Prius has no accessory drive, no alternator, no starter motor. So some hidden benefits you wont have to sort out are regenerative braking, electric assistance for power brakes, power steering, air conditioning. The cars are at least part time EVs, therefore they make the shortest most logical route.

Prius has available an EV mode, and it can drive a short way on its suitcase size battery using the cars two electric motors. Speed is limited (I think to 32MPH) but this is more of a battery protection issue.

Just one difference for Prius is that coolant is used to provide heating. To maintain a consistent heat supply the cars have an insulated reservoir tank of coolant so that the heat doesn't stop because the engine does. I dont think this makes using a Prius as a basis is impossible though.

As far as I know, there are no commercially available kits for converting a Honda to a PHEV, and I suspect there are reasons for that. Honda’s Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system differs from Prius in that it only operates when the engine runs. It is not capable of powering the car in electric only mode.

I think your mission requires more research, or just plain get a Prius and kit instead?

I hope this link is helpful, good luck ...

Insight PHEV - EAA-PHEV

If you wanted to look at Prius instead, theres a lot of amateur DIY work out there, if I can put in a plug (no pun intended) for the Prius Chat Forum

https://priuschat.com/forum/

http://www.evplus.com.au/evplus_conversions.htm

[Natalya]

The G2 Insight (2010 to 2014) actually does have an electric-only drive mode that it uses at a certain throttle threshold if you're in a low engine load situation.

When it goes into EV mode there's no indication to tell you that it's done this, but you'll see that you're getting assist and at the same time the MPG graph is maxed out. The engine is still in gear and being spun by the electric motor but Honda put in some kind of mechanism to prevent the valves from pumping air so the losses from turning the ICE are way lower than if you tried to cut the fuel but provide assist in a similar fashion with a G1 (2000 to 2006) Insight. However the electric motor on the G2 is only 10 kW so you wouldn't be able to use it for a straight EV.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Of course can go as high as one wishes , they make lots of very power electric motors .. just a personal preference thing.

Just for comparison/perceptive:

At near ~OEM Weight .. 30kw continuous (with no wind) can hold constant speed up a ~30% (~17deg) slope at ~60MPH.

The OEM Insight ICE+IMA combined .. (any gear you like) .. doesn't get above 30kw output (even in rich with 100% max IMA Assist) , until you are over about ~2,500 RPMs .. and without IMA Assist the OEM ICE alone , even in rich burn and V-Tech doesn't get above ~30kw output until up near ~3,500 RPMs.

If you have a OBDII device you can data log with .. Like an OBDII-C&C + Laptop .. you can log your RPM usage window .. and of course each person's route / conditions / methods will vary .. but when I logged this for myself in my Insight for a year , I got .. I used a peak of over ~2k RPM only ~36.8% of the time (about ~25kw Max ICE+Max IMA Assist) .. and only used a peak over ~3k RPMs ~0.003% of the time (about ~36kw Max ICE and Max IMA Assist) .. soo , it would be ok for my usage pattern .. of course YMMV.

It's not part of my every day drive, but there are plenty of "normal routes" where I live, in which I'm at 3500-4000rpm with assist to maintain 40mph. 3rd gear is simply too tall to climb many of the "hills" around here, many of which take 5-10 minutes to climb.

[jray3]

Other than " at least 50 miles" in the original post, I haven't seen Natalya define the essential mission parameters before folks got in the weeds on technical details. How far, how fast, and how much $?
30 kW may get you there, but from experience, I'll say that 170 kW of Zilla power is a helluva lot more fun! Besides throttle ramp rate, clutch selection is a good way to limit drivetrain abuse (better to slip than shred), and the clutch is an important safety feature as well.
There are two Gen 1 Insight conversions in Portland Oregon; Gary Graunke and John Wayland.
An AC-driven car with regen adds up to 10% range and a new dimension of driving excitement, but the cost/benefit ratio winner is still a series motor and powerful controller, especially since there are so many secondhand bargains these days. The 11" is not only overkill, but would be far less responsive than a 6" or 8" motor. I wouldn't go even 9" unless you're going for a Zilla and beefier tranny.
LEAF modules are about the easiest, most affordable battery option for DIY, but CALB cells will last longer and fit in many spaces better.
First item to buy for your project: a towbar, dolly, or trailer.
Good Luck,
Jay

[Daox]

I got the info on that 11" motor. See the for sale thread:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ors-35419.html

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Ecky

It's not part of my every day drive, but there are plenty of "normal routes" where I live, in which I'm at 3500-4000rpm with assist to maintain 40mph. 3rd gear is simply too tall to climb many of the "hills" around here, many of which take 5-10 minutes to climb.

As they say .. YMMV

Good example .. people doing a conversion .. either need to know their specific context needs , or have plenty of surplus to cover whatever.

2nd gear ~3,500 RPM , ICE with some IMA assist on top (so you're up around ~40kw for the ICE+IMA combined) , in 2nd gear .. just for 40MPH .. , wow without a head wind that's like around ~28 degree slope .. for up to ~7 miles or so at a time .. you gained over ~3miles of elevation in 10 minutes .. ouch that's a crazy combination of very steep and extremely long hill .. going up painful .. but equally holly cow , the going down that hill on the way back .. that's up near ~6.6kwh of potential energy getting converted back .. probably at least around ~5kwh of braking energy friction or regenerative , even my A123 IMA pack could only suck up ~2.5kwh of it .. ... ouch .. Glad I don't have several monster hills like that , in my driving.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Daox

I got the info on that 11" motor. See the for sale thread:

I once restored a table saw that got a 15hp motor. This looks suitable for that. What does it weigh? How much would an adapter plate cost?

Here's an all-up drivetrain that has 50kW/68hp and weighs 98lb. It is an buried magnet AC motor instead of DC with interpoles.




Here's how it fits in a VW Beetle:



I paid $650 for this example.*
________

AFAIK a similar component ships in the current Toyota RAV4 that has twin motors with an software differential. And 115hp.
________

I would think this discussion would be self-limiting to the first-gen, two-passenger, aluminum bodied version.

*This conversion, with controllers and (300V) batteries and their box[es] would run into the thousand of dollars. I'm leaning more toward a diesel-electric mild hybrid now. That should cost more like $1000.