EcoModder Forum Feasability of going from gas to only electric

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Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by freebeard The cited article makes the case that watt-hour/mile is a better unit to work with than kilowatt-hours/100 miles. From the chart, the Leaf weighs 3276lb, and gets 300 watt-hours per mile; a ratio of 11 to 1.
Yes. I looked over the article. I'll read it more detailed this time.

The problem with rules of thumb is that they don't help when it comes to calculating distance based on actual circumstances nor when modding. For an example, taking the rolling resistance and air drag and calculating how far I could go at what speeds (assuming that the motor/battery efficiency doesn't change from an estimated 80% efficiency) I see I can go only159km/99miles at 100kph/62mph yet reach 229km/142mi at 75mph/47mph.

What I did was take a spreadsheet and put in it all the numbers pertaining to the Leaf (known weight,known drag coefficient, known frontal area, guessed rolling resistance and guessed total efficiency). Then I took all the formulas for physics and put them all together into a total sum of theoretical distances. (i.e. F=V^2*Cd*A*D*0.5, P=V^3*Cd*A*D*0.5, F=a*m, P=m*V^2, P=F*d, etc.)

That's not exactly real life testing, but it's closer to ballpark than using a rule of thumb. The rule of thumb 300w/h per mile would mean that the Leaf gets 80miles, regardless of how and where it's driven, or how it's been modified.

Of course on the other hand, there are numbers that I just guessed at and others I just overlooked completely. For an example, I just guessed the rolling resistance and the total efficiency. I didn't even include other uses of the battery pack's energy, such as air-conditioning, heating, gauges, radio, lights, etc. Also battery degradation on both a used Leaf and over coming years. Also actual air density.

But still, the math is there, and if it says I can go almost 1.5 times the distance by driving at 45mph instead of 60mph, it's close enough to the truth to be believable.

But yes, I need to read that article.

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 03-14-2016, 02:46 PM #42 (permalink) Full sized hybrid.     Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Colorado Posts: 602 Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE 90 day: 37.18 mpg (US) Thanks: 369 Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts Attached Thumbnails
 03-15-2016, 03:13 AM #43 (permalink) Full sized hybrid.     Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Colorado Posts: 602 Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE 90 day: 37.18 mpg (US) Thanks: 369 Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts For some reason, the thought of pushing a Nissan Leaf with a Honda PCX 150 as a way to increase range just passed through my head.
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For 'rule-of-thumb', substitute 'sanity check'. If you result is wildly divergent, you might double-check. Are you seeing 83 watt-hours/mile?

Edit:
Quote:
 ...pushing a Nissan Leaf with a Honda PCX 150...
I'm thinking I'd like to push the Arcimoto electric tadpole with a Vespa motor scooter converted to a one-wheel trailer.

Last edited by freebeard; 03-15-2016 at 04:13 AM..

 The Following User Says Thank You to freebeard For This Useful Post: Isaac Zackary (03-15-2016)
Full sized hybrid.

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 602

Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE
90 day: 37.18 mpg (US)
Thanks: 369
Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by freebeard For 'rule-of-thumb', substitute 'sanity check'. If you result is wildly divergent, you might double-check.
Ok. I'll check in with San Ity.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by freebeard Are you seeing 83 watt-hours/mile?
Maybe just guessing the range factor in a world without air. The 330 miles guessed above is based off of rolling resistance only. No air drag included in that equation.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by freebeard Edit: I'm thinking I'd like to push the Arcimoto electric tadpole with a Vespa motor scooter converted to a one-wheel trailer.
Cool!

 03-16-2016, 03:56 AM #46 (permalink) Full sized hybrid.     Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Colorado Posts: 602 Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE 90 day: 37.18 mpg (US) Thanks: 369 Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts Hey! I found something interesting. Supposedly a way to charge a Leaf up from dead to fully charged in about 90 minutes or even less... At home! Upgrade My Leaf | Upgrade charging system in Your Nissan Leaf and slash 0-80% recharging time down to 90 minutes !
 03-16-2016, 04:19 AM #47 (permalink) Master EcoModder     Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: northwest of normal Posts: 14,943 Thanks: 3,764 Thanked 4,981 Times in 3,960 Posts Once you're into the range of 50 Amps and above, the wiring in the home in question comes into question.
Full sized hybrid.

Join Date: Apr 2015
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Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE
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Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by freebeard Once you're into the range of 50 Amps and above, the wiring in the home in question comes into question.
I know. But it is interesting. It answers another question that I had, can the battery be charged directly off of another charging source, such as a solar panel, and if so, how? Well now I know. Now it's time to make that 400V solar panel .

...50kW later...

ZZZZZZZZXXXXXXXX ZZZZZZXXZZZXXXXXXXXZZZ

 04-14-2016, 06:33 PM #49 (permalink) EcoModding Apprentice   Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 110 True Blue - '89 Honda Civic Hatchback, 1.5ltr, 70hp, 4 spd, Base model Team Honda 90 day: 47.19 mpg (US) Shorty - '01 Mazda Miata SE Sports Cars 90 day: 33.66 mpg (US) Thanks: 101 Thanked 37 Times in 25 Posts In the San Francisco area, I've been seeing used Leafs selling for less than \$10k. I read that EVs have a horrible resale value, so a used EV is your best value. Can't remember where I read it, but someone said that a battery replacement on a Prius is down to \$1k. I would imagine a Leaf battery replacement to be around the same. I find the Leaf fugly, but if you can get beyond the looks, an EV is a terrific way to go!
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Or you can get a Chevy Volt for 12k with 40 miles summer and 25-30 miles winter range with a gas engine backup. I drive 42 miles a day even in the winter (Kansas) and only use maybe 0.2 gal of gas a day!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary Trying to crunch numbers... A 2014 Mirage goes for around \$9,500. If this car doesn't put out enough heat (it probably won't on 25mph streets at -40°F/-40°C) I'd have to add a preheater (around \$3,000 installed). What about heated seats and steering wheel? So far possibly \$12,500. For a few miles per day I'm probably going to spend around \$30 per month in fuel. (About what I spend now in my Golf.) \$360 per year. \$3600 for 10 years. Now we're at \$16,100, possibly. Or maybe \$12,600 depending on how well this thing heats. Insurance and maintenance? (Help!) So then I drive it for ten years and then sell it for the depreciated value of a 12 year old Mirage (that hopefully still runs fine. Probably will I guess.) I can pick up a 2013 Leaf for around \$11,000 or so. But I can still get a \$2,500, more or less, tax credit making it about \$8,500. Hopefully the Leaf will put out good heat at -40°F/-40°C and still be able to go some 10 miles. (Otherwise I will have to find a brick wall to bang my head against.) But hey! Heated seats and steering wheel are included! I wonder how much electricity these things will use up during the winter?? Insurance and maintenance? (Help!) By the time 10 years have passed (13 years for the life of the Leaf) I'd take it I'd have already had to have replaced the battery (which goes for what? some \$5,000 or so?) or it would be on its last leg and probably wouldn't be worth much. That's about \$13,500. Probably more with installation and all. Perhaps \$14,500 up to now. Oh! And don't forget to add \$130 for a weekend rental of a gasoline car 6 times a year (\$780) for ten years (\$7,800). So the verdict is? (I should have paid better attention in math class.) Yes. It looks like the Mirage (\$16,100) may be the cheaper and better option compared to the Leaf (\$21,300). (But I wanted an electric! Waaaa!)