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Old 01-29-2016, 12:25 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Stubby79 View Post
Speaking of which, I measured the space between the end of the trans case and the frame rail on my '95. It was 5". Which should give me just enough room to comfortably shift the trans over the 4.5" previously mentioned. Hopefully.

Its nice when you start enjoying a project...

Here is a pic of how small that gap is between the drivers side frame rail and the transmission after you skoochy everything over to the drivers side. You can leave the axle nuts off when you verify side to side position, so that you can slide the axles back and forth to feel the fitment before welding.


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Old 01-30-2016, 03:11 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Motor info / theory / thoughts.

My motor is a bit of a mystery. There's no real documentation to be found laying around the internet about it. So it stands to reason that I would need to test it out for myself to get some baselines.

Mainly, I wanted to know the effect of the field's current on the RPM output. This is important so that I don't over-rev the motor and kill it.

And from that I would be able to get an idea of the current's effect on the motor's torque. If the numbers make sense, anyway.

So, I ran some tests on it, measuring RPM for a given voltage on the armature with different voltages on the field. I plotted my results:



From that, I could calculate the motor's speed at any given armature voltage vs different field voltages. This will tell me if I need more field voltage to keep the RPMs down to a safe level at higher armature voltages.

I keep talking about field voltage, when it's current that is actually important. But, in my case, my field coils have a resistance of 1.0 ohms, so whatever my field voltage is, there is the same amperage going through. 20 amps at 20 volts, 100 amps at 100 volts, etc.

Where was I? Oh yes.

I noticed, pretty quick, a pretty much set pattern between the RPM per Volt and the field current. Double the field voltage, and the RPM/V goes down by almost exactly 10. That's convenient.

So, if that holds true(and it does from my observed figures), I can easily calculate that if the field goes up by, say, 25%, that the RPM/V will go down by 25% of that 10. Or if it goes up by 50%, RPM/V will go down by 5 (50% of 10). Etc, etc, etc.

I wasn't expecting it to be so linear right off the bat, after looking at field saturation curves. I expected to see a "knee" in my numbers. So I read up on why the field saturates the way it does and how current can continue to increase the field strength after said saturation, only it does so linearly. Which tells me that at ~12v, my field is already at saturation.

That makes sense, since Sep-Ex motor's are usually designed to run the field at 1/3rd the armature voltage, and this is probably out of a 36v (or at most a 48v) forklift. You would want your field mostly maxed out while using a reasonably low amount of power. (though that's an assumption!)

Anyway, with it being nice and linear, I can plot out even higher field voltages then I would probably ever run in reality.

Thus:


The measured numbers are in the box in the upper left, and the projected are outside. Numbers along the top right half are armature voltages, numbers below each armature voltage are RPM.


I also plotted assumed/calculated torque, based on the RPM/V change, and using 22v(24v minus load losses) on the field as a baseline. That's probably about where I'll set the baseline for said field voltage/current.

Assuming that power output stays the same and efficiency doesn't take a major hit, we can tell that torque will go up directly relative to how the rpm/v goes down. A 10% lower RPM/V will result in 10% more torque, for example.

And note that the % of difference could be referenced at any different voltage; it simply shows torque relative to said baseline. For example, if I had 48v on the field, and dropped it down to 12v, I would only have 70% of the torque I was before.

Assuming the armature current remains the same. Oh, all these variables!!


Anyway, I now have some useful information on my motor, so now I'll know how to expect it to behave.

Motors around this size are known good to be run up to 5500rpm. Technically 8" Advanced DC are good for burst up to 8000rpm, but who's to say if ADC built these as well as they built the 8" series-wound motors that are widely used in the (old) EV world?

So, back to reality...I can run the motor safely all day long at 72v with only 12v on the field. I can run it all day long at 96v with 24v on the field. If I need more power, I can run it for short periods at 120v with 48v on the field.

Whether or not the motor will like doing ~5000rpm without advanced timing, I won't know until I try. Sep-Ex motors are kept at neutral timing, so as not to mess up regenerative braking. Not that I will have regen with this controller.


How much power? How much torque? In reality, I won't know the specifics without testing/trying it. Even if I contacted ADC, they probably don't have any info on it above 48v.

I can probably assume it will be similar to the 8" series wound ADC motor, the 203-06-4001 (this is a 203-02-4007). Which can put out a continuous 14.4kw/19hp @ 96v. And, supposedly, a peak of 51kw/68hp & 100 ft-lbs of torque @ ~600 amps. I won't have the transmission-crunching torque of a series-wound motor at 0 rpm(stall), but I would assume similar torque at "operating" RPMs.

If I'm cramming 51kw in to it at 2000rpm, either I'll get a similar amount of torque out of it, or I'll generate a lot of excess heat. Conversation of energy and all that. I'll find out.

That's at 600 amps. My controller is rated for 1000...

Yeah, I'll put some conservative settings in to it and take it from there.

FWIW, Mechman's 7.2" SepEx was running at 3800 rpm @48v Field/72v Armature IRRC. My motor is ~10% bigger, and projects to run 10% slower at the same voltages...hopefully confirming that I'm not completely out to lunch!

On a side note regarding motors, I took a peek in at the ones in our electric indoor forklifts at work recently, curious what they're using these days, since they're new. Low and behold, it turned out to be an AC motor! 7.3 kw @24v (though it's on 36v) for the 1-hour rating. That's a lot of amperage (~300a) to be able to maintain, out of a motor about the same size as mine. Must be more efficient.

At any rate, maybe there will be a supply of affordable AC motors for EV conversion down the road, when they start parting these things out...


Last edited by Stubby79; 01-31-2016 at 07:17 AM..
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:15 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Lightbulb

Having RPM/volt permits me to be able to calculate torque for given output power. And from there calculate Torque/Amp, relative to field current. Which then allows me to be able to chart torque at different amperage levels on the armature...



Torque is expressed in ft-lbs.

I confirmed my numbers by calculating backwards with simpler formulas, and compared them to the 8-in series wound ADC motor's chart.

Said chart shows that the series wound motor puts out 25 ft-lbs @200 amps, and low and behold, my math puts my motor, with 24v on the field, at the same 25 ft-lbs. At 600A - which is both triple armature current and field current in a series-wound motor - the series wound puts out ~100 ft-lbs. If I triple only my armature current, I can expect to get 76 ft-lbs, but if I triple my field current as well, I can expect to see 106 ft-lbs...pretty much the same as the series wound.

Of course, my field coils won't like running 72 amps, so I'm not likely to do that. Safer to just crank the armature amps up a bit to make up the difference, since it should take the punishment a bit better...but I don't think I'll want to push 100 ft-lbs through a transmission designed for maybe 70.

Right, EVmetro? Metro transmissions don't like 100-ft-lbs much, do they?

Anyone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me and my math. I've seen a number of people asking for charts/curves for their unknown SepEx and not finding any, so hopefully some people will find this useful.

Now I can use this to get a rough idea of what my smaller motor can put out...
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:29 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Question

So, EVmetro...tell me what I should know about building a LiFePO4 battery pack.

Orientation? Sounds like anything but upside down will work?

Straps & plates? Don't see any in the pics on yours. Is that because, big as they are, you aren't pushing them hard?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Stubby79; 01-31-2016 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 02-01-2016, 12:06 PM   #55 (permalink)
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It is good to strap and plate the batteries, but they will can still be damaged if they are subjected to the conditions that make them swell. On my 98, (first conversion on this forum), I used GBS Gen 3 batteries that came with really nice straps and plates, so apparently they felt it was a good idea. All I had to do was mount the strapped bundles. On my third conversion, the 93, the boxes are built pretty tight, but there is room for swell. I am very kind to the batteries and have them protected with an Orion BMS, which is linked via CANBUS to the controller. The controller derates the throttle as needed to prevent any or all of the batteries from sagging below whatever level I program in.

The batteries can be mounted any way other than upside down, and in my personal opinion, they should be protected by a good BMS. There is much debate about BMS or no BMS, so others may recommend not using one. I am very biased about the Orion BMS that I use in all of my conversions, to the extent that it is the only BMS worth using, but a "just a BMS" should do the job as well.
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Old 02-02-2016, 08:23 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Thanks! I think. I guess I'll be doing the whole kit and caboodle then!

...just on a budget!
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:44 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVmetro View Post
It is good to strap and plate the batteries, but they will can still be damaged if they are subjected to the conditions that make them swell.
I, with my limited actual experience, and a lot of reading ... could not agree more!

Quote:
I am very kind to the batteries and have them protected with an Orion BMS, which is linked via CANBUS to the controller.
If I had the budget - this is what I would do.

Quote:
I am very biased about the Orion BMS that I use in all of my conversions, to the extent that it is the only BMS worth using, but a "just a BMS" should do the job as well.
If I remember, the Orion can be set to monitor only, not to top balance?
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:56 PM   #58 (permalink)
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If I remember, the Orion can be set to monitor only, not to top balance?
The Orion does everything, and then some more. It does indeed top balance, and you can adjust how it does this. There is a "begin" balancing setting that you set it to. As the batteries are charging, the balancing does not begin until each battery reaches the voltage that you have selected. If you have the begin balancing voltage set to 3.41 volts, as each battery reaches that voltage, it will receive a small amount of resistance, while the lower voltage batteries do not. Once the first battery crosses the finish line and the charger shuts down, all of the lower voltage batteries still have that small amount of resistance until they reach the "end balancing voltage that you set. If you set the end balancing voltage to say 3.42, as each battery settles to below that voltage, it no longer has the resistance on it. When the last battery drops below your end balancing setting, it is done.

Here is the screen that I have set up for charging mode. The Orion gives many more gauge options than this one, but this is what I like to see when my car is charging. I never did figure out how to fix the PID equations to set my decimal point to the correct position, so the highest and lowest cells read 333+ volts each, but they are really just 3.33+ volts each. It is pretty cool to be able to see each individual battery voltage during the charge cycle.

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Old 02-03-2016, 04:26 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Late to the party!

If you wanna come get 'em, you're welcome to the 4-cyl driveshafts, shift linkage & mounts from the ForkenSwift! Bit of a run for junk parts, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
a vacuum booster still seems kinda overkill for such a small car.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with that sentiment, and EVmetro's. I drove the ForkenSwift for ~6 years with no boost, but if I were doing it over I would add boost. I would say safety is marginal without boost.

I'm really enjoying your project (and the delivery style)!
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:57 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Wow this is a great conversion!

With the motor brush advance, can the brushes be moved without disassembly? I remember a few years ago I thought of using a servo to advance/retard the brushes to match the required speed and direction. Probably not worth the effort, but you could have reverse without arcing and all that.

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