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Old 10-08-2015, 02:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't have any interest in fast charging or using an EV on long trips unless I'm permanently moving it to a new location. The DC fast charge contributes to battery degradation, and I can't be bothered with even a 20min charge on a trip up to Seattle. That's why I intend to keep the plug-in Prius.

EV's won't replace primary vehicles for a long time, but they are a smart choice for multi-vehicle families. If I were single and only owned 1 vehicle, I still might choose an EV and just trade with a friend/family for longer trips.

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Old 10-08-2015, 06:14 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What does primary mean if not the vehicle you use most?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The DC fast charge contributes to battery degradation, and I can't be bothered with even a 20min charge on a trip...
EV's won't replace primary vehicles for a long time, but they are a smart choice for multi-vehicle families.
Let the myths flow forth. Saying that DC fast charging contributes to battery degradation is just as valid as saying that running an engine at varying loads and speeds wears it out faster. They both beg the point, which is getting maximum utility for your buck. Consider the following NREL studies, the first in which two LEAFs were exclusively fast-charged at 50 kW and two others only slow-charged at 3.3 kW, but driven the same. They found a negligible effect, less than 3% more degradation under this most extreme scenario, made more extreme by the use of 2012 LEAFs, which have no battery cooling system and had a heat-vulnerable chemistry.
Idaho National Laboratory: DC Quick Charging a Nissan LEAF Doesn't Kill The Battery - High Temps Do
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/63700.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/63531.pdf

In most families with an EV, it quickly becomes the primary vehicle; that being the vehicle which makes the most trips and covers the most miles per year. Taking the van to Yellowstone in summer and to Granny's for Christmas does not re-qualify it as the primary vehicle. Occasional roads trips are a secondary use more easily filled by a rental than daily driving.

All of this pales next to the following fact: all fuel-fired cars use more electricity than all current EVs, due to the average 8 kWh used to refine a gallon of gasoline. (The ethanol energy balance being worse, diesel a bit better.) An EV can drive 24 to 32 miles on that 8 kWh, before the gas is even burned! And usually it is a direct comparison, because refineries pull from the same power grid as EV charging for that region, so Seattle's Bellingham-refined gas is 82% hydro-powered, but Midwestern and Southern gasoline is mainly coal-powered. Refiners are smart, so they won't use marketable petroleum to power their processes if cheaper grid electricity and natural gas are available. You may recall the reports of massive amounts of natural gas being burned to extract bitumen from Alberta's tar sands; more so than if the natural gas was used directly in CNG vehicles or to generate electricity for EVs. The issues are actually simple when refined down to basics. A 20 minute fast charge may sometimes be inconvenient, but I can't be bothered with oil changes, timing belts, brake jobs before 100,000 miles, coolant flushing, pcv valves, mufflers, spark plug and wire replacement, tranny rebuilds, diesel exhaust fluid or plugged catalytic converters, topping off fluids, greasy and burnt fingers, engine air or oil filters, screaming power steering pumps, refueling, noise and odor, and what else? Oh yeah, paying $0.024 per mile or less for domestic, clean energy rather than sending up to ten times that to fat cats and terrorists.
--rant off--
I ain't holy and I still enjoy wrenching on engines from time to time, but for everyday use, EVs are so much better in so many ways.
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Old 10-08-2015, 05:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jray3 View Post
Let the myths flow forth.

<snip>

All of this pales next to the following fact: all fuel-fired cars use more electricity than all current EVs, due to the average 8 kWh used to refine a gallon of gasoline.
Now who is propagating myths?

Just because Elon says it, doesn't mean it's true. That figure is based on the energy efficiency for refining gasoline from crude oil.... Here is one source for the electricity figure:
Electric Mini: It takes a lot of coal to make gasoline

But... most of that energy does not come from electricity.

If you check out HIS source, it's this study which shows energy efficiencies for petroleum refineries:
https://anl.app.box.com/s/a8s8qagg9s...5m6v06oe1ls0r6

It also shows where the energy comes from that the refineries use. See pg 8.

Purchased electricity makes up a small percentage of the energy consumed, just 4.3%. Plus there is some electricity generated at the refinery (cogeneration) that wouldn't be generated at all if the refinery wasn't using it. The bulk of the energy used is from burning fuels (primarily products from the crude oil) in furnaces and boilers. So, how much actual electricity is actually used to make a gallon of gas? A fraction of a kWh.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darcane View Post
Now who is propagating myths?
Ok, guilty as charged. 'cept Elon didn't start it, Nissan did. I've double-checked with my dad, a 30 year petroleum engineer, and he said it varies tremendously, but 8 kWh sounded fair. It's a shame that Washington state refinery stats got blended with Arizona, Alaska and Hawaii in the Argonne report. Talk about lost in the wash!

The big hole in that report is that it didn't count onsite-generated electricity. I don't buy the cogeneration argument that it wouldn't have been generated if the refinery wasn't using it. All refinery inputs become either a product or a waste, and a hazardous waste at that. You can bet that any liquid or solid waste with fuel value will be burnt before it is hauled off as havardous waste (or blended into the still bottoms/asphalt). Refineries have flares burning 24/7 as a safety device ready for emergency gas venting, but also because they have a lot of process waste/surplus gas that they'd rather burn than take a loss on (through added processing of a low value product or by creating a market oversupply). This article claims that waste gas being flared off was equal to 25% of US natural gas consumption in 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_flare

In my refinery hometown of Pascagoula MS, it was common to find tarry specks of flare fallout all over our cars in the morning, because the 'emergency venting' always seemed to happen at night. I'd bet that Bellingham WA residents have similar experiences. Oil refining is a nasty, secretive business.
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Old 10-09-2015, 05:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jray3 View Post
Let the myths flow forth. Saying that DC fast charging contributes to battery degradation is just as valid as saying that running an engine at varying loads and speeds wears it out faster...
I just wanted to insult EVs to get a test drive like Darcane.
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Old 10-09-2015, 06:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I just wanted to insult EVs to get a test drive like Darcane.
Sorry but like you said; can't be bothered to take such a long trip in an EV.
But if show up to an OEVA meeting or EVent there will be many folks happy to let you take a spin. Club contacts gave me a half-dozen EV test drives before I EVer had to humor a salesman.

Only thing better than a ride in a TESLA passenger seat is a ride in a TESLA driver's seat!
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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My wife had me do a Myers-Briggs personality test last night. ENTP.

Apparently that means I argue for the sake of argument; often playing Devil's Advocate for a position I don't necessary support just to get others to partake in logical debate and flesh the idea out. I appreciate direct answers either for or against the position I hold. Thanks Jray

I don't intend to offend anyone; it's just that I'm never offended and assume others likewise take no offense.

The DC fast-charge myth was something I wasn't aware of. I was simply repeating information I had heard about Tesla battery capacity being negatively impacted by frequent use of DC fast-charge.

My intention is to purchase an EV, likely a 2013 Leaf, once the 2nd gen comes out along with the Bolt EV and other upcoming models that should drive prices down. And I agree that it will likely be my "Primary" vehicle since it will be the most frequently used. The Prius has seen 15k miles since February, meanwhile the Acura has mostly been dormant.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Many people seem to argue for the sake of arguing, but logical debate does not seem to have anything to do with it.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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As a Myers-Briggs INTJ, I also appreciate argumentation, and will endeavor to not dismiss RedPoint's obviously inferior perspective out of hand. ;-)

The whole VW diesel debacle will be pushing small-car efficiency away from diesel and into greater electrification. I'll welcome that, because hybrids are EVs with training engines, and after a Prius, any EV feels like a sports car.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I just bought an iMIEV the other day. Got it used for $7,000.

Been liking it so far. It's not fancy, just an economy car that happens to use ZERO gasoline.

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