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Old 11-05-2012, 09:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Hei - sorry for not being clear on my idea. I was thinking that the car wastes a huge amount of heat anyway.
Even if driving eco, the gas is still being burned and the heat is wasted - is all in the way the ICE works ( the 25% efficiency for gasoline ).
I know all the threads that you provided - thank you. But I see a problem with all those approaches. The insulation on the Prius engine is fine - also the thermos. But there isn't enough heat stored. The insulation capacity is limited.
The metal from the engine and the coolant will store a good amount of heat anyway, but it still isn't enough. From my point of view, the perfect car wouldn't have a radiator.
It would maybe carry with it about 100kg of wax instead.

I did mention wax ( or paraffin wax ) for a reason. This is a common and affordable PCM ( Phase Change Material ). That means that it will melt within the engine temperature operating range. When melting, the PCM stores a huge amount of heat. Wax is cheap and easy to find, almost free compared to the Prius thermos.

I tested this with about 0.3 Kg of wax, using 3 small recipients used for portable coolers. The were filled with a glycol mix I think - because of the same principle. That glycol mix would change phase when freezing / melting - so it would absorb a huge amount of heat for it's size. With the test recipients I was able to keep the engine warm for about 4-5 hours in the summer ( to about 50 deg Celsius ) and for 2-3 hours in the harsh winter ( to about 30-40 deg Celsius ). The main problem for my test was that after a while, the wax started leaking and I was afraid for the engine not to catch fire. So I need more wax and a better recipient - a metal one.

I was saying about the perfect car. With an engineered PCM and a huge amount of it, the car would never need a radiator. Or just need it for emergency. More than that. If you could store 50% from the heat generated on a 50-100 km daily commute, when arriving home, you could just plug the car in, and have instant heat for the home.

L.E.: I guess, with this kind of tuning, the car would become a mobile co-generation plant.
pmiulian, that is brilliant. I was thinking about this same idea, of having some material in the car that can store an insane amount of heat, but you took it to the next level. Now adding 100k of wax would decrease your efficiency by about 5% due to the weight, so maybe you could run some efficiency tests on the idea along with heat tests, and maybe you could attach some sort of reverse block heater that somehow takes that heat and uses it for something else, like heating your house. And what if that emergency radiator was your heater core? Just run the heat if the car is getting a bit on the hot side.

Taking this to even another level, what if your car ran off of heat? An LED light was recently made that somehow could turn some of the heat from the surrounding atmosphere into light. What if an engine could do the same: take heat from the surrounding atmosphere and turn it into mechanical energy? That would be the ultimate car.

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Old 11-05-2012, 02:02 PM   #22 (permalink)
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For the heat into power, I'm pretty sure it isn't efficient enough, or enough "power" to do much (think of steam engines / boiling water efficiencies). The ultimate MPG car would be a steam engine car in my eyes burning something that is #1 renewable, and #2 cheap. After a trip, you could use a small pump to push the hot water into a pex tubing heating system for your house, and at the same time fill the car with cold water.

For the heater core idea, could make up a flap so air comes in just in front of you windshield and blows out into the engine bay/under the car instead of killing you in the car (thinking summer!), of course winter could be direct into the car .

I wonder what is more efficient... 100% grill block/areo front end, or leave a small spot for areo drag and cool the radiator, which is basically opened all the time, unless you had some motorized automatic setup.



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Originally Posted by wobombat View Post
pmiulian, that is brilliant. I was thinking about this same idea, of having some material in the car that can store an insane amount of heat, but you took it to the next level. Now adding 100k of wax would decrease your efficiency by about 5% due to the weight, so maybe you could run some efficiency tests on the idea along with heat tests, and maybe you could attach some sort of reverse block heater that somehow takes that heat and uses it for something else, like heating your house. And what if that emergency radiator was your heater core? Just run the heat if the car is getting a bit on the hot side.

Taking this to even another level, what if your car ran off of heat? An LED light was recently made that somehow could turn some of the heat from the surrounding atmosphere into light. What if an engine could do the same: take heat from the surrounding atmosphere and turn it into mechanical energy? That would be the ultimate car.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:23 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Maybe this is a horrid idea, but how about reducing the heat capacity of the cooling system?
It'd also cool off a lot faster.

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Also, I suspect that engine oil has a lot to do with short trip economy,
It sure has.
I can see (instant fuel consumption), hear and feel the difference between 5W30 and 0W30 in winter.
Less fuel use in the first miles, and it runs quieter and smoother.

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Supposedly not all 5W or 0W are equal, a 5W-20 is quite a bit thinner than a 5W-30 when cold.
5W should be 5W (though there is some variation within specifications) - as it's the cold rating of the oil.

20 will be thinner than 30 when hot.

Quote:
0W would be better but I have an oil burning early 1ZZ so I'd rather not use an expensive oil
If it's already burning oil, a thinner (lower hot "weight") oil will only burn more oil.

I wouldn't go 20 if the engine isn't designed to take it.
I might try it in Hägar, as I don't care about the bugger anymore

Going down to a good quality 0W oil in winter shouldn't be much of an issue.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:03 AM   #24 (permalink)
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That's what you'd think, 5W is 5W, 0W is 0W, 10W is 10W, but all the data I've seen says that 5W-20s are a little bit thinner on startup than 5W-30s. Similarly 0W-20 are thinner than 0W-30s on startup.

I have a 10W-30 right now and the engine sounds like crap when cold, makes all sorts of noise :/ MPG is also horrid in the first few miles, seems to average 23 or so. Luckily the coolant warms up quickly. Going down to 5W or 0W 30 next time, hopefully things are a bit better. Apparently the difference in oil pressure upon startup between different 0W-20 oils can be very large, on bobistheoilguy I read a post where someone switched from one 0W-20 (forgot which one) to Toyota 0W-20 (highest viscosity index oil commonly available), and oil pressure dropped 20psi :O


Last edited by serialk11r; 11-07-2012 at 09:09 AM..
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