Fish, Pogue, Gerrard, and Schwartz super mileage carburetors

[metromizer]

I have been interested in these non-mainstream carburetors for several years now, to the point I am doing some research for a story.

Starting with the Pogue 'Winnipeg', the supposed "200mpg Carburetor" <eyes rolling>, the history and folklore is an incredible story that reads more like an espionage novel of dastardly Oil men and Auto exects conspiring to keep the invention out of the hands of us common folk. You can still special order a Fish today, albeit a big-bore for 366cubic inch engine and costing $850usd. There are plenty still around on shelves, and modern reports 15% to 20% better FE seem like a more believable return from a carb with no accelerator pump, if driven judiciously.

I am very interested in hearing some first-hand experience tuning and driving, fuel mileage stories, from anyone with experience with any of these super-mileage carbs.

I imagine the most common is the Fish, at one time sold in the US, then licensed and manufactured in the UK under the name Reece Fish.

Reece manufactured a Fish model back in the 1960's specifically for the 40hp VW. I own a 1962 Beetle, just rebuilt it's engine, and would love to get my hands on a Reece Minnow Fish to experiment with.

Anyone have a lead on a Reece Fish for a VW?

Anyone have any stories?

[ChazInMT]

This should join the ranks of the Unicorns. Already been beaten like the dead horse it is.

Bottom line, The Carburetor is only a small piece of a very large efficiency puzzle, you still have hugely inefficient engine, drive train, and aerodynamics to overcome. The engine in most cases burns 99% of the fuel, so there is very little to be gained by improving that part of the equation.

You don't think for an instant that if a car company could get the edge on its competitors by offering a 200 mpg car, that they wouldn't be all over it? It's delusional to think that the main car manufacturers get together in secret and say, "Let's just keep fuel efficiency down to 40mpg or less, we'll all make more money that way."

200 MPG Carburetor Talk

[metromizer]

Sorry, maybe I need to be more clear. I don't think for second that these things are the panacea they were once marketed as.

I am interested in the historical aspect of... never mind, yes, a waste of time.

Moderator, feel free to delete this post.

[some_other_dave]

I hope you can get ahold of one! If you do, please do exhaustive testing, A/B/A testing if you can.

-soD

[ChazInMT]

Metro, I think you can delete it youself if you want by going to Edit, then delete it.

Did you find the 200 MPG Carb Thread? A lot of good stuff there very similar I think to what you were looking for.

I'll delete my posts if you do, I suppose this would make it a Zombie thread if we did because I don't think we Mortals can delete a thread.

[Peter7307]

Originally Posted by metromizer

I am very interested in hearing some first-hand experience tuning and driving, fuel mileage stories, from anyone with experience with any of these super-mileage carbs.

Many years ago I had an original Mini (before BMW bought them) fitted with a FISH carb in place of the standard SU.

According to the seller this was the ultimate in racing gear and know to a "select few" as "the winning edge" !

Great stuff but a real shame it didn't do as promised!

Easy to set up and virtually no parts inside either. Kind of like a lawnmower carb in a lot of ways. Basic and simple.

Fuel economy was about the same as the SU's , power was lower and torque was lower (I had the car dyno tested since at the time I was part owner in an operation which had access to one) and that was about it.

One flaw was it was either set up for a limited speed range (flow) so any other speed range it didn't perform as well as the original SU.

A "miracle" it was not and "super efficient" was something to dream about.

Eventually I sold it to someone who saw it on the bench and wanted to buy it despite my warnings.

Got what I paid for it so I was happy and I reverted to the standard SU.

As an aside David Vizard gives them a review in some of his books if that is a help.

Peter.

[oil pan 4]

Your best bet is to get a carburetor you can tune with primary metering rod and jet changes and tune it using a wide band air fuel ratio meter, vacuum gauge and tachometer.

No accelerator pump will make it very difficult to start the engine.
I tried unhooking my accelerator pump linkage once and it really hurt drive ability with out an accelerator pump an automotive carb just sucks. The main reason you have accelerator pumps is to transition between idle and load.
There are 2 ways to calibrate the accelerator, change nozzle size or move the linkage, so its not a total waste of fuel. Altho my A/F goes to 11:1 for a few seconds when I step on it. With out an accelerator pump my car would just stall when given more air with out fuel.

I am sure a properly tuned carb can get as much as 15% to 20% better fuel economy than one that is just taken out of a box and slapped on the engine and run.

[villain.ind]

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

This should join the ranks of the Unicorns. Already been beaten like the dead horse it is.

Bottom line, The Carburetor is only a small piece of a very large efficiency puzzle, you still have hugely inefficient engine, drive train, and aerodynamics to overcome. The engine in most cases burns 99% of the fuel, so there is very little to be gained by improving that part of the equation.

You don't think for an instant that if a car company could get the edge on its competitors by offering a 200 mpg car, that they wouldn't be all over it? It's delusional to think that the main car manufacturers get together in secret and say, "Let's just keep fuel efficiency down to 40mpg or less, we'll all make more money that way."

200 MPG Carburetor Talk

oil companies + auto manufacturers + greedy government making deals with them all = $$$$ so ya, they make more money that way.
have u noticed that fuel economy increased sharply after the oil embargo of the 70s then the improvments slowed then almost stopped just 20 years later? today the only company selling a full lineup of 35mpg+ cars (in the usa) is, off the top of my head, kia, there are likely others but its late and i have a headache. mini comes to mind

[Arragonis]

The conspiracy to keep the "200 MPG carb" from being sold only exists in the minds of people who believe the "200 MPG carb" ever existed and wondered why they can't buy it at their local parts shop.

Equally the idea of a conspiracy between "big oil", car makers and government to keep fuel efficient vehicles out of the US marketplace is very dubious at best.

The efficiency gains we have had since the 1970s comes from the application of technology - removing carbs and using injection for one thing. A lot of those efficiency gains have (unfortunately IMHO) been lost to increasing performance and offsetting the effects of increased weight instead of saving fuel.

But they are real. A Range Rover of 1972 could just about crack 100 MPH and 0-60 in about 11 or 12 seconds. MPG was 13-18 (Imp).

The new one does about 20-40 MPH more and 0-60 in 8 seconds or less, is about 50-80% heavier and includes more gadgets than the average house (air con, TV, electric everything). MPG is now 15-20 (Imp).

Its market demand that has driven this. Not some blokes in suits in a darkened room somewhere pushing models of black helicopters around.

[ChazInMT]

I once had one of those models of the Black Helicopter, but one day I woke up, and it was stolen. The only thing I can figure is the NWO has one of the spy smoke detectors in my house and saw me playing with it one day and came and got it back, Those B@$ta&ds!!!