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Old 09-07-2015, 09:14 PM   #31 (permalink)
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In garbage trucks it also saves huge money in brake work, I've heard $10k+ annually.

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Sounds like you should build a few demo models..
https://www.youtube.com/user/Ride122609

You mean like this one 12/26/09.

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:24 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Another one, apparently they don't need very expensive components, epa 38 city in a ford ranger.

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Old 09-07-2015, 10:04 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hersbird View Post
Ohio Town Welcomes First Hydraulic Hybrid Garbage Trucks | Waste Management content from Hydraulics & Pneumatics
They say saving 4,000 gallons of diesel per year per truck. That's pretty good. They also mention it's a heavy system, probably another reason you don't see it on a 2 ton step van (payload) but you might on a 20 ton garbage truck.
I would bet that almost every hydraulic component in those trucks is standard industrial hydraulics. Industrial hydraulics are designed to run 24/7 for 30 years with only an occasional filter change. Size and weight are not a priority.

A hydraulic system designed for commercial vehicle use would have, say, a 20 year design life running 2000 hours per year. Size and weight would be a priority. It would be an entirely different system.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:38 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
...epa 38 city in a ford ranger.
But who drives a Ford Ranger exclusively in the city?

The problem with hydraulic hybrids is that you need strong (that is, heavy) pressure vessels to store energy, which means you can't store all that much. Which makes it a good match for anything that has frequent start/stop cycles, like garbage & delivery trucks, or the repetitive swinging of Cat's HH excavator, but not so great for general use.
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Old 09-08-2015, 09:10 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
But who drives a Ford Ranger exclusively in the city?

The problem with hydraulic hybrids is that you need strong (that is, heavy) pressure vessels to store energy, which means you can't store all that much. Which makes it a good match for anything that has frequent start/stop cycles, like garbage & delivery trucks, or the repetitive swinging of Cat's HH excavator, but not so great for general use.
And how far will your Insight go on the stored energy alone? Maybe a mile?
It would be a slow trip with the 10 hp of which much would be used just spinning the engine over without fuel.

Doubling or more the replenishment capacity of that energy reserve, without a battery, and eliminating the rest of the powertrain, would allow significant improvement over it's capabilities, while producing a profitable product for the manufacturer anda much more reliable product for the consumer.

What's not there to break down is the best, you don't have to pay for it initially AND you don't have to repair or maintain it later.

I'm not talking incremental crap. Think 30% fewer parts per vehicle (and I am one of the few here who has had their hands on most of the 5k or so parts a car needs). That is huge. A car like you have never imagined.

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Old 09-08-2015, 10:48 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
https://www.youtube.com/user/Ride122609

You mean like this one 12/26/09.

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Where is the rest of the vehicle?
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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And how far will your Insight go on the stored energy alone? Maybe a mile?
Actually the Insight won't go any distance at all on the stored energy alone (barring some IMHO stupid tricks), because it's not designed to do that. But how far will some hybrid, like a Volt, that is designed to run on the electric system alone, go? (About 50 miles, per Google.) How much would a hydraulic system to store that much energy weigh? And how much complexity is added if you want to replenish that stored energy from say your home PV system?

Quote:
Doubling or more the replenishment capacity of that energy reserve, without a battery...
Except you're running up against the laws of physics when you try to store energy in compressed gas. You can only store just so much (the equations are easy to find), and that amount is much less than can be stored as chemical energy. You also need a strong container if you're going to work at high pressures (think scuba tanks), and a volume of hydraulic fluid equal to that of the uncompressed gas. And unless you have well-insulated pressure vessels, you're going to lose a significant fraction of your energy as heat.

The long-term problem is that hydraulic storage is pretty close to those physical limits already, while electrochemical storage has a great deal of room for improvement.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:45 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I have the same complaint about the linked video. Also, none of them show how it works. Is air compressed by the fluid to store the energy?

I don't see this as catching on for passenger vehicles, mostly because we are at the tail end of ICE in this application. With EVs becoming more popular, they will eventually eliminate even the modest mechanical complexity of hydraulics.

This seems more suited to garbage trucks and delivery vehicles as others have commented.
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
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There are several hydraulic hybrid systems available. The one that has come closest to mass production was Peugeot-Citroen's Air Car. The system was slated for production this year, but they needed a partner to fund the tooling, estimated to cost 500,000,000 Euros. Unfortunately, the economic downturn, combined with a change in corporate leadership, has shelved the project (mortally wounded with the exit of the project's leader and the gutting of the engineering staff as the new CEO is abandoning Citroen's decades long experience and leadership in hydropneumatics).

It took 30 years for electronic hybrids to get through the corporate, regulatory and marketing maze. Hydraulic hybrid is a viable option that will find its way through the maze, eventually. In the meantime, the technology will continue to improve.

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