Forget the hydrogen economy, go methanol!

[freebeard]

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr --

Originally Posted by UFO
The future is still a battle between battery chemistry and fuel cells.
Meanwhile, as far as internal combustion engines go, I'd still keep the Diesels as a primary choice.

Lately, I've taken a liking to the Scuderi Air-Hybrid. But with extra compressed air storage that can be recharged overnight.

[Air-Hybrid]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I don't think fuel cells will be able to power a road vehicle with satisfactory performance with out batteries or capacitors.

That would seem to agree with the Honda FCX Clarity wikipedia article:
"Main components of the vehicle include fuel cell, two hydrogen tanks behind the rear and ultracapacitors."

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Believe me, before becoming a dieselhead I used to be favorable to fuel-cells and 10 years ago I even used to think they would be economically-viable in 2015.

Unfortunately, fuel cells suffer from being one of those techs constantly labelled as 'just around the corner' by politicians and journos!
I think the main reasons they are still so economically uncertainty has less to do with improvements in 'cell' technology (including cost reduction) but is more a matter of storage and infrastructure. ... That's why I like this methanol route so much!

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Air-Hybrid

Unfortunately, fuel cells suffer from being one of those techs constantly labelled as 'just around the corner' by politicians and journos!

Maybe, politicians and jornalists' engagement in a fuel-cell hype takes some credibility away from them. Needless to say how politicians fail, and how many journalists are irresponsible.

I think the main reasons they are still so economically uncertainty has less to do with improvements in 'cell' technology (including cost reduction) but is more a matter of storage and infrastructure. ... That's why I like this methanol route so much!

I remember one teacher from my high-school senior year doing some comments about the '89-'90 ethanol crisis in Brazil, when American methanol and even Italian grape ethanol were imported to keep dedicated-ethanol cars running instead of retrofitting them to run on gasoline. He said pure methanol is highly toxic, so it required the gas station attendants to wear an "astronaut suit" to ensure methanol vapors wouldn't penetrate thru their skin, but in Brazilian gas stations some reckless attendants thought they were safe just with a surgical mask

[Air-Hybrid]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

He said pure methanol is highly toxic, so it required the gas station attendants to wear an "astronaut suit" to ensure methanol vapors wouldn't penetrate thru their skin, but in Brazilian gas stations some reckless attendants thought they were safe just with a surgical mask.

Wikipedia's page on Methanol Toxicity paints the fuel as having good points and bad, but as generally being no worse than petrol.
And states the "maximum allowed exposure in air is 1260 mg/m³ for methanol, 1900 mg/m³ for ethanol and 900 mg/m³ for gasoline. [Plus] methanol is much less volatile than gasoline".

Also, I don't know about what it's like these days thoughout the Americas but barely any stations pump their own gas here.

[freebeard]

There's a least one state (the 33rd ) where Service is a legal requirement.

No need to pump your own gas when your dressed up to go somewhere with clean hands.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by freebeard

There's a least one state (the 33rd ) where Service is a legal requirement.

...OR and NJ

[topcat]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned diluting petrol or diesel with methanol. Can it safely be done to a regular car, where does one get hold of methanol, is it cheaper than petrol?

[UFO]

Originally Posted by topcat

I'm surprised no one has mentioned diluting petrol or diesel with methanol. Can it safely be done to a regular car, where does one get hold of methanol, is it cheaper than petrol?

The energy density of methanol is half that of gasoline. On an unmodified fuel injection system this will lead to dangerously lean mixtures as well as significantly reduced mileage.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by topcat

I'm surprised no one has mentioned diluting petrol or diesel with methanol. Can it safely be done to a regular car, where does one get hold of methanol, is it cheaper than petrol?

No, never ever put more than 1% or 2% methanol in a diesels fuel system and the only time you should be doing that is when you have fuel jelling problems from the cold.

Diesels can burn methanol in place of diesel fuel if you introduce the methanol into the engines intake air.
Water+Methanol injection is slowly becoming more popular over here, mostly to boost engine power. It can be used to reduce diesel consumption.

[Allch Chcar]

This isn't the first time I've heard of Methanol being touted as a future fuel. Early Flexfuel cars were made to run on E85(85% Ethanol) or M85(85% Methanol). Including an experimental Flexfuel Taurus, Escort, and Crown Victoria. Check under History on the wiki page for a brief summary. Flexible-fuel vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

If it could also use CNG or LNG, that would be even more cost-effective, since many of the hydrogen is converted from Natural Gas

Then you have the problem of storing a Gas. It either requires a high pressure air tank or a cooled liquid tank. There is a third option that takes advantage of hydrogen's innate ability to condense better when mixed with a compound but I've never seen this on a production vehicle.

Using a liquid fuel is just plain better for the consumer too. Easier to refill and takes up less interior space. CNG vehicles are still largely limited to fleets due to limited refilling stations available.

Originally Posted by UFO

The energy density of methanol is half that of gasoline. On an unmodified fuel injection system this will lead to dangerously lean mixtures as well as significantly reduced mileage.

There have been some studies of running up to 10% Ethanol in a Diesel engine to improve fuel economy. But biodiesel is the only biofuel available from a Diesel pump. I haven't heard of anyone using Methanol as a Diesel additive. :/