Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-11-2013, 11:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 113
Thanks: 16
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Forget the hydrogen economy, go methanol!

"Scientists in Germany and Italy have discovered a way to derive hydrogen gas from methanol at low temperatures and pressures using soluble ruthenium based ‘pincer’ catalysts."


Supercharging methanol for fuel cells

This seems a much better idea as it's sticking with a liquid fuel. One that can initially be made from natural-gas prior to more renewable sources coming on-stream.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 03-11-2013, 12:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,190
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,522 Times in 1,123 Posts
...bet the "...soluble ruthenium based ‘pincer’ catalysts." ain't cheap?!?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
UFO
Master EcoModder
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,300

Colorado - '17 Chevrolet Colorado 4x4 LT
90 day: 23.07 mpg (US)
Thanks: 315
Thanked 178 Times in 138 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...bet the "...soluble ruthenium based ‘pincer’ catalysts." ain't cheap?!?
But by definition, a catalyst is not consumed in the reaction.

Liquid fuels beat all gaseous fuels hands down, but natural gas production is currently consuming fresh water at an unsustainable rate, and causing way more pollution than we know or can handle.

Methanol is good stuff, especially for biodiesel production, bet we need to make it from something else, like cellulose.
__________________
I'm not coasting, I'm shifting slowly.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to UFO For This Useful Post:
some_other_dave (03-11-2013)
Old 03-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 10,154
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,206 Times in 1,067 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
Liquid fuels beat all gaseous fuels hands down, but natural gas production is currently consuming fresh water at an unsustainable rate, and causing way more pollution than we know or can handle.
When you refer to natural gas, are you quoting fossil natural gas? One thing that I consider a shame is that many biomethane is wasted at landfills and sewage treatment stations while all that fossil natural gas is extracted
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 11:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 9,615

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 228
Thanked 3,138 Times in 2,457 Posts
My diesel is methanol ready.
Heck any diesel could use methanol to reduce diesel consumption for maybe $1000 right now.
Methanol is so much easier to make than ethanol.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 08:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 113
Thanks: 16
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
Liquid fuels beat all gaseous fuels hands down, but natural gas production is currently consuming fresh water at an unsustainable rate, and causing way more pollution than we know or can handle.

Methanol is good stuff, especially for biodiesel production, bet we need to make it from something else, like cellulose.
Attempts to reinvent how we power personal transportation as the age of oil wains have time and again run into the brickwall of the fossil infrastructure that already exists. ~ for instance, even though pure BEV are perfectly useful today for over two-third of all journeys the average driver won't be even considering them as a second car.
- The thing I like the look of for this methanol tech is the infrastructure adjustments appear to be far easier, whilst issues like range anxiety and 'charging time' are sidestepped.

The methanol should not be produced from any fossil source ideally, that's a given. But realistically we need a way to give momentum to newer to technologies (momentum that hydrogen will never gain IMO [and for good reasons]), but personally I'd rather water that we can't be spared (in an ideal world) was used for turning a relatively low carbon fuel like NatGas into an efficient, workable road fuel than have fresh water [and NatGas!] consumed in, say, upgrading tar-sands; continuing business-as-usual!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 11:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
UFO
Master EcoModder
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,300

Colorado - '17 Chevrolet Colorado 4x4 LT
90 day: 23.07 mpg (US)
Thanks: 315
Thanked 178 Times in 138 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Air-Hybrid View Post
Attempts to reinvent how we power personal transportation as the age of oil wains have time and again run into the brickwall of the fossil infrastructure that already exists. ~ for instance, even though pure BEV are perfectly useful today for over two-third of all journeys the average driver won't be even considering them as a second car.
- The thing I like the look of for this methanol tech is the infrastructure adjustments appear to be far easier, whilst issues like range anxiety and 'charging time' are sidestepped.

The methanol should not be produced from any fossil source ideally, that's a given. But realistically we need a way to give momentum to newer to technologies (momentum that hydrogen will never gain IMO [and for good reasons]), but personally I'd rather water that we can't be spared (in an ideal world) was used for turning a relatively low carbon fuel like NatGas into an efficient, workable road fuel than have fresh water [and NatGas!] consumed in, say, upgrading tar-sands; continuing business-as-usual!
I am not sure you are considering biodiesel.
__________________
I'm not coasting, I'm shifting slowly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 01:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 113
Thanks: 16
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
I am not sure you are considering biodiesel.
UFO, as your signature asserts, "no oil for blood"... but the same is true if a rich minority of the world's pop. is going to steal the 'bread basket' from the poorest, surely?

To be fair, the future of energy is going to need to be much more diverse than the 20th century was, but unless a diesel or petrol replacement can be made today by means that won't be in competition with someone's arable land (like a way that the whole of the Sahara can be pumping out oil from captured sunlight) I don't see how we aren't going to require some fossil-fuels to make the transition - and natural gas is better than the others!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 02:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
UFO
Master EcoModder
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,300

Colorado - '17 Chevrolet Colorado 4x4 LT
90 day: 23.07 mpg (US)
Thanks: 315
Thanked 178 Times in 138 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Air-Hybrid View Post
UFO, as your signature asserts, "no oil for blood"... but the same is true if a rich minority of the world's pop. is going to steal the 'bread basket' from the poorest, surely?

To be fair, the future of energy is going to need to be much more diverse than the 20th century was, but unless a diesel or petrol replacement can be made today by means that won't be in competition with someone's arable land (like a way that the whole of the Sahara can be pumping out oil from captured sunlight) I don't see how we aren't going to require some fossil-fuels to make the transition - and natural gas is better than the others!
Biodiesel can be produced from algae and wastewater. Not bread. Natural gas is not better, it's a fossil fuel and it is consuming our fresh water to produce (far more scarce and valuable).
__________________
I'm not coasting, I'm shifting slowly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 02:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 113
Thanks: 16
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
Biodiesel can be produced from algae and wastewater. Not bread. Natural gas is not better, it's a fossil fuel and it is consuming our fresh water to produce (far more scarce and valuable).
What are the global projected quantities that could be realised for producing Biodiesel "from algae and wastewater"? ... a tenth of current diesel use; a hundredth? - It's not so simple when looked at in these terms.
That's the 'well' part of the equation; what about the 'wheel'? - nice clean methanol (of what ever source) sloshing around in a fuel tank has the potential (via the tech above) to turn (I'd estimate) three-quarters of it's chemical energy into driving (via a fuel-cell/e-motor) the wheels -full cycle- ... biodiesel is only suited for an ICE and will be lucky to return one quarter chemical efficiency full-cycle; plus it does nothing to encourage wider changes in infrastructure, etc.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com