Are four wheel drive vehicles better because they're safer?

[Bror Jace]

Yes nerys, but the conditions where 4/AWD is actually safer are pretty rare. You too pointed out their limitations.

Honestly? You'd be better off with 4 snow tires. For most conditions, I'd take a 2WD economy car with snow tires over a 4WD SUV with "all season" (gag!) tires. Only in deep snow (8"-10"+) and going up steep hills will the 4WD SUV have an edge (and an AWD car won't have the ground clearance edge!).

Also, with these 4/AWD you are hauling around that weight 100% of the time ... as well as the mechanical drag ... and that takes its toll on efficiency (as well as braking which you correctly pointed out).

4/AWD vehicles are also more expensive, more expensive to insure (because most people are not particularly skilled drivers) and more expensive

I like some AWD cars and 4WD SUVs for certain people/purposes ... it's just that for most people, this stuff is terribly oversold and they'd be better off with snow tires if they live in the northern third of North America.

[Nerys]

Bror the question was not asked like that so I did not answer like that. Fact is 4wd IS safer in ALL conditions if driven LIKE a 4wd.

4wd is NEVER safer if driven like a sports car.

How much safer well thats another discussion and was now what was asked :-)

I have an 88 Cherokee. 31" mudders Full SKids Plates Rancho 9000's all around 4" suspension lift and Pre Ethanol I could squeeze an average commute of 24mpg out of it. Owe and it weighs less than a Wrangler :-) My minivan masses way more than my cherokee does. (they were built very light 3k)

Many peoples "compact cars" can not get that :-)

I love my cherokee. NOW I actually used the 4wd. I would go off roading sometimes weekly in the summer years ago. The Cherokee also had selec trac 4wd IE full time 4wd mode so I could use it in ANY conditions with almost ZERO mpg hit (open center diff) At least I was never able to measure a reliable mpg difference.

Most people do not realize you can NOT USE 4wd in 99% of the conditions you will normally encounter in day to day driving. EVEN in snow. If you can "see" asphalt you should not be in 4wd (unless it has a full time mode like the longer jeeps did the shorter CJ YJ jeeps were too short to hold the select trac transfer case)

Frank. Thats because these people get hyped up by less than educated salesman (and there own lack of reasoning and research) into thinking there invincible in 4wd.

4 brakes is 4 brakes no matter if your 2wd or 4wd. :-)

AWD is a fantastic improvement when coupled with traction control. DRAMATICALLY increase onroad safety in the nastier climates IE anything above mid Pennsylvania or the north west etc.. IE if you typically get snow AWD with traction control is priceless. They really have come a long way with this and with MINIMAL mass penalties as well !! remember that little subaru does not need giant dana 44 rears etc.. far lower stresses far lighter smaller components.

Now if your in florida. Well thats just wasted mass :-) I live in PA. our winters the last 10 years have been VERY mild. prior to that we would get some doosies. Staying home was not an option if I wanted to be fed :-)

[JohnnyGrey]

I live in PA. our winters the last 10 years have been VERY mild. prior to that we would get some doosies. Staying home was not an option if I wanted to be fed :-)

Same here. I've only been driving since 01, but I've never seen a road I couldn't travel with FWD. When snow finally hits, some idiot who paid $3K more for AWD or 4WD tries to "put it to good use" and wraps his car around a telephone pole. My cousin actually put his mom's WRX into a ditch after thinking he could take a corner by pointing the car in the right direction and flooring it. Not smart.

I like FWD because you can test your traction limits in the snow and it only causes understeer. RWD and 4WD cause your rear end to break loose, which isn't as safe.

I would have to endure months of awful winter before I'd consider AWD/4WD. Like SUVs, AWD is something a lot of people buy and very few people need.

[i_am_socket]

You can have all the technical advantage of 4/AWD you want, but I'd say 80% of those that have it are still morons. Last winter (06-07) our plant closed early because of ridiculous snow. Driving home 40 miles in that mess was a treat. (Should have stayed at a relatives house half a mile away, but that's besides the point)

The parkway was ok as its heavily driven so it was just a wet slushy mess and everyone was driving nice and easy. I78 west was another story. I stuck it out in the center lane doing 40ish. There were morons in SUVs flying by, some of which I saw later on the side of the road. One such SUV was coming up behind me and they decided that they really needed to pass me. I watched in my rear view mirror as she (the big hair was a giveaway) slowly slid into the left lane, over corrected, over corrected again and spun around 3 times into the right shoulder.
Closer to home I have to go up and over some foot-hills (they're called mountains, but 600' is hardly a mountain). On the incline its was very slick and icy. The SUV in front of me lost traction and started sliding backwards. Me in my FWD corolla was able to hold traction to move out of the way and keep going on up. I passed a few RWD BMWs spinning their wheels helplessly at intersections. Going down I decided to take the least inclined route I could because its really steep taking the usual route. I counted no less than 5 SUVs in trees and ditches and not 1 car.

There should be mandatory training before being allowed to purchase an SUV around here, especially those that want to "feel safer."

[IndyIan]

I agree that most people buy SUV's don't really have a clue what the capabilities are. 8" wide "all season" tires don't work in snow well no matter what drive system or electronic gadgets you have...
I have to admit sometimes I'll be going a bit quicker than others in the snow but with 4wd and snowtires with the snowtires being the most important part, stopping and turning isn't that scary. Honestly, I hate driving in the snow without snowtires now that I've gotten used to them. I really don't understand how people go so fast with their regular tires, they are very close to the "limit" without knowing it.

Here's a pic of how much snow it takes to stop a small SUV with snowtires, there was ice under all that snow too so it gives you an idea of how much traction there is. This in on our driveway after a 30cm of snow and then 80km/h winds... That is not fluffy snow.

[Nerys]

damn I wish we got snow like that :-) Actually socket thats one of the reasons I HATE my minivan in the winter. The thing is so damned stable you can not have fun with it. FWD sucks for having fun. Its the same in the jeep but I can "turn off" the 4wd and really have some fun.

I was starting to get better with the 4wd. I almost got to the point where I could be going 15mph "spin" 180 flowing into reverse and they "spin" again into drive. Much fun.

There was a group of us at a parking lot once (quite a few of us "know" the parking lots around here We even monitor them before a snow to make sure there are no holes bumpers or hidden obstacles to cause trouble) I have these little flag pole things that I stick in any new potholes so we do not "hit one" sideways at 20mph :-) that would suck.

Sadly have not done that in a long long time. No where near enough snow lately. Its also a good safe way to learn and train for low traction driving skills. If you screw up so what you just slide to a stop and try again.

Lots of fun to be had :-) I had some fun even on streets too. I was turning around to help some guy get unstuck and there was not enough room to make the uturn without getting stuck in the plowed embankment he was telling me 1/2 mile down there is a clearing you can turn around in. I just inched forward and then turned the wheel applied the brakes and applied gas. Spun that puppy around inside its own diameter :-) he had a dumbfounded look on his face and then smiled.

We always had to have multiple lots to practice in though. Inevitably we would always get some moron with his new SUV or worse his mustang who would insist on trying this stuff at 40mph and faster. Suicidal we would just leave and go somewhere safer. At those speeds FLIP hazard becomes a big issue and interceptions becomes problematic. No thanks this was my DD.

[DifferentPointofView]

RWD and 4WD cause your rear end to break loose, which isn't as safe.

That hasn't happened to me yet, and I almost went into a ditch taller than me because of understeer. I turned the wheel, but the jeep didn't turn.

I don't even know why the heck people think they "NEED" 4wd if they live in a big city!!!! They friggen keep the roads clear once it starts snowing for crying out loud!!!

I think it's us rural people and country people who need it. Do you think the town will be able to afford snow plows if it can't even afford a police station? not a chance.

We have to wait for our snow to melt, sometimes it takes days, sometimes weeks, and it's usually 8"+

If you come here, 75% of the vehicles are trucks, yet 75% of the vehicles on the side of the road, are either mini-vans, or old people in buicks/chevy impala's. the rest are a mix of cars, trucks, and SUV's.

We've got a bunch of jeep guys. Towing is available 10miles away, or you could call one of our jeep friends to pull you out for free. It's a pretty sweet deal (the jeeps here are all lifted with mudders and winches. Some with snorkels too

The river here gets flooded alot, and so do the roads near the river (the levee broke one time and we had to sandbag. The levee is about 25 feet above the roads) . Some of the Jeepers find a road where it is in between 2 hills and, with the doors off, ride through the flooded areas, which is funny, because the water gets over the hood sometimes.

Well enough off topic-ness

[Bror Jace]

Nerys,
You certainly seem to know what you're doing ... but must be aware (as others here are) that the great unwashed masses out there aren't necessarily too swift. And the fact that so many don't get it is leading to thousands more crashes and even many deaths in North America alone.

So, I think it borders on irresponsibility to praise A/4WD on a public forum without a lot of accompanying caveats.

Even the title of this thread: "Are four wheel drive vehicles better because they are safer?" is sort of misleading. It assumes the 4WD vehicles are safer (for most people in most adverse conditions). And to that I would say:" Yes, but ..." and my list of 'buts' would be lengthy.

I love the capability of A/4WD in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing, but in the current climate full of myths, ignorance and incompetence, I feel that the people who know better should clearly state the (contrary) facts whenever the opportunity arises.

[Nerys]

Bror my post was chock full of caveats :-) The issue is largely the fault of the salesman who do NOT fully inform customers of the limitations of these things while fully exaggerating there benefits :-)

[Bror Jace]

Yes Nerys, you had some caveats above ... but again, I think the balance has shifted so far towards people believing that A/4WD has 'magical' properties that I think we should go even further in pointing out its limitations and detriments whenever the subject is first brought up.

You're right about the main problem ... an automotive industry that is all fired up to sell an extra unnecessary something to people in the name of higher profits. Couple this with public ignorance and you have a lot of people running around spending additional money on something they don't need, causing them to burn more fuel than they should and (in some instances) actually killing them.