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Old 04-22-2008, 11:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Hi John,
AWD cars don't necessarily have TC built in, with open differentials they can get stuck spinning any 1 tire. 4WD get stuck when spinning 2 tires, one on each axle. If the AWD car has antilock brakes then adding TC is not a big deal so many have it as well. Also with many SUV's being designed for highways only they need TC to have any sort of offroad capability at all. With stiff road tuned suspension getting 1 tire off the ground is likely and therefore the AWD system is useless at that point without TC or locking differentials.

I am debating getting manual hubs for the front. I do use 4low for backing up trailers now anyways, its a pretty light truck and I don't have aggressive tires on it so they slip abit. The real reason is to disengage the front axle so its not turning all the time, trackers tend to eat the seals on these axles and I have one thats weeping a bit, so it would be cheaper to get the manual hubs than get the seal replaced and according to some people you get a 1mpg improvement.
I agree with you that the 10" wide tires sells more people on AWD or 4WD. 2 inches of wet snow makes alot cars and trucks look silly! I also laugh at the 10" wide snow tires they put on, a 6 or 7" wide snow tire would be better in every condition except dry pavement... We have snowtires on the tracker and the only thing I worry about driving in snow is someone else sliding into me. I'd still recommend snow tires on any car regardless of the drivetrain because all season tires these days get so hard at low temps, snow tires stay softer and give better traction on dry pavement as well as anything else.

I could blab on and on about 4WD vs AWD vs the parttime AWD/4WD systems. Basically if you are offroading at all you need low range and that usually only comes with 4WD. If you are getting stuck in your driveway in town then AWD or parttime AWD/4WD will probably get you moving again.
Ian

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Old 04-23-2008, 09:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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DPoV, my own experiences with 4WD and AWD bear out that 4x4 on the road in snow is twitchy at best. I'm glad my transfer case allows me AWD as well. 4x4 Fulltime is equal to AWD, allows the front and rear axles to spin at differrent speeds. 4x4 Parttime locks the front and rear together which can make slippery corners interesting. A locking diferential compounds the Parttime problem, as the locker will not allow slippage between the wheels. Limited Slip differentials are a bit better (I have one in the rear of my Jeep), but in snow and ice can make the rear almost as squirrely as a locked diff.

So, if it is snowing and the roads are NOT cleared, I'm Fulltime. If I'm in deep snow on or off road, I'm in Parttime.

As to why 4x4 guys don't like AWD? Mostly because so many SUVs only have AWD, not true 4x4. If you have an SUV and it doesn't have a low range selection, you have an open diff or viscous coupling between the axles. That and some of the hardcore 4x4 guys equate AWD and FWD and minivans in the same grouping. Simply, each drive system has its place.

And yes, I wish I could unlock the front hubs. But the entire front drive assembly is always rotating in my Jeep. Even in just RWD. SO I will never get DPoV mileage. And to convert his RWD ZJ to 4x4 will only had about 200 pounds. Not a massive difference. The difference in weight is made up with the slightly heavier front axle assembly (he currently has a tube/beam axle which is heavier than you might think), and the transfer case and lever and driveshaft.
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Old 04-23-2008, 06:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
I have one word for people getting stuck in their driveway: shovel.
Welll.... I definitely saw a mini van get stuck in their driveway.. and there was no snow either... It was 1 50 degree angle slope, sidewalk, then another 50 degree slope, then about a 10 degree incline until the driveway. it was basically starting the ice storm and barely any had started to form. Salt might have helped but Ive done salt on ice and it doesn't melt right away. snow definitely does. but not ice.

Quote:
And to convert his RWD ZJ to 4x4 will only had about 200 pounds. Not a massive difference.
Which is something I've always wanted to do you'd be surprised how heavy Jeep makes their stuff. they're wranglers are small... but look at the curb weight on one of those...

Hey ZJRog, you wouldn't happen to know the difference in weight between the AMC 242 I6 and the 318 Magnum V8? I don't think there's much difference there either.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Isn't there a kit to convert full time 4WD to part time or is it the other way around.

It sounds 4WD requires more common sense than AWD.

That would make AWD safer by my definition.

What about the AWD skid avoidance systems. Safer? or Proof that throwing more money at the issue doesn't help.
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Old 04-24-2008, 02:05 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Silveredwings -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveredwings View Post
So I'm hearing that 4wd has a higher chance of getting into a ditch, balanced slightly with the utility of 4wd helping get you back out ... unless you're too inebriated.
This is such a convenient post for me because it fits the data like a charm. A Subaru Impreza with a WRX spoiler and an intoxicated driver whacked my oh-so-meekly parked Saturn on Sunday the 13th :

My Damage :


His Damage :


Good news : No one hurt.
Bad news : My car took a knock.
Good news : Seems to be only plastic panel damage.

I got an alignment, and there were no visible problems. Car is working fine.

I don't think it had anything to do with AWD. It was just a fast car with the wrong driver.

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Old 04-24-2008, 09:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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John,
I would say AWD makes the car or truck more idiot proof than 4WD as AWD can be running the whole time, 4WD you have to conciously decide when you need it and have to disengage it on high traction surfaces. I've heard subaru offers their cars with hi/low range in australia which combined with a lockable centre differential is the ideal drivetrain. I know dodge pickups are set up this way now as well.
Skid control or vehicle stability management can work on any car but I guess having AWD in addition would be slightly better than 2wd. It doesn't break the laws of physics though, go to fast into an icy corner and the car will make a nice controlled arc off the road instead of spinning out with locked up tires. Probably if you had a choice you'd want to go off the road backwards anyways, all the expensive parts are at the front!

I'm kind of a luddite when it comes to electronic stuff on my cars, I'm not really even interested in ABS let alone stability control, I like manual transmissions and even roll up my own windows and use my key in the door locks! I am considering a scangauge though, it seems to be a very useful bit of electronics.
Ian
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:16 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I've never driven with stability control. But I see it will mandatory sometime soon on all new cars. Great. Bad drivers will get away with stupid stunts and think they know what they are doing.

I like ABS, and do not miss traction control. I had a 94 Chrysler Concorde with TC and ABS. TC was very overbearing.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:36 AM   #28 (permalink)
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DPoV, I don't know the weight difference. But I agree it is probably negligible. The inline 6 is a heavy motor.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I know that since the inline six was gonna be put into engine bays designed to carry the weight of a big V8, they just made the I6 thicker and tougher than a regular 6, and it turned out to produce a nearly bomb-proof engine that produces the majority of it's torque in the low end, all of which is basically below 3k. which is good cause I never get downshifts or Torque converter unlocks going up any hill. good for the mpg's. And the 95 I6 even sounds like a diesel too a diesel that's not? sounds like it.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
Silveredwings -



This is such a convenient post for me because it fits the data like a charm. A Subaru Impreza with a WRX spoiler and an intoxicated driver whacked my oh-so-meekly parked Saturn on Sunday the 13th :

My Damage :


His Damage :


Good news : No one hurt.
Bad news : My car took a knock.
Good news : Seems to be only plastic panel damage.

I got an alignment, and there were no visible problems. Car is working fine.

I don't think it had anything to do with AWD. It was just a fast car with the wrong driver.

CarloSW2
Oh, that's a spoiler ... and I thought it was a carrying handle.

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