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Old 07-09-2009, 06:50 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robchalmers View Post
Personally - working for an OE thats part of a bigger group (I'm not speaking for them and my view may not be theirs- disclaimer) but I doubt that they'll want to produce a car that runs on a one market fuel. Thinking of the effort that has gone into R&D purely on one engine for flex-fuel, where if the is no supply of one fuel you can still use another its hard to imagine them creating pretty much a new class of engine in addition to the Gas and diesel in current model ranges, not to mention the changes in car infrastructure for the different fuelling set-ups / heat dissapation / cooling, all of which would need to be tested and certified for multiple markets. I think you'd have to be looking 5-10 years down the line by which time alot of OEs are looking to have already start in model cycle development of alternates. That would leave you with the aftersales markets and I doubt you'll see many bar most hardcore paying $4k ($1k per cylinder) to convert 5k family run-a-round.

Sorry to sound like I' having a downer there

Also a couple of things from the bullet point above:

'Range: vehicle only limited by size of fuel tank' can't you say that of any fuel in any vehicle?

'Emissions: "0", N & H2O' have any toxicology studies been done into the affects on the body of high N environments - just if all the cars in a rush hour jam are running ZF we could have health risk of the quantity of the smog issue we have now.
You have to start somewhere if you want to make a change. No transportation fuel is perfect, but we feel we have the best answer to get off of imported oil, sending USD overseas & the emissions it produces.

5-10 year time line for ZF acceptance is OK when you consider CNG has been around for 20 years with very little acceptance. Pickens has it wrong, CNG is a terrible transportation fuel. Lets use it to make H2 & ZeroFuel.

As far as flex fuel, E85 is not accepted for many reasons, and our engine tech is straightforward. NH3 vehicles have been around since the 30's.

Our 1K per cylinder retrofit is much cheaper then others that offer battery hybrid retrofits or CNG conversions. I wouldn't expect many 5-10K vehicles being retrofit, as we plan to market vehicles in all segments, including as cheap as the Nano running on ZF.

Infrastructure will be much cheaper & quicker to setup. Being ZF is non-flammable, non-explosive, or toxic there is no need for fire systems, blow proof pumps or vapor recovery systems. Early adapters & those who want to buy or mix themselves in large quantities can have inexpensive home filling stations

As far as range, BEV's are limited compared to ICE's.

I would rather breath N then NOX.

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Old 07-09-2009, 06:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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If this is the fuel of the future, then the all-important question is: Will it be able to power my flying car?
Don't have a good answer for you.

I would assume if a flying car was designed around our fuel that it could be done.

More important we can support, truck, marine, train, farming, mining, motorsports applications.
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Old 07-10-2009, 03:22 AM   #33 (permalink)
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It may be me missing how this whole thing works but in your slide bar the chain it say the ZF has to be decomposed before used as fuel - are you saying that happens in the car's gas tank or at the gas station or at a refinery? Also I'm intrigued as to what parts need to be added, removed or modified in a retrofit generically speaking like fuel pump, fuel lines, filters, ecu, intake control ecu, intake manifold, exhaust.

You say E85 is not accepted but I can think of at least 6 OEs that have cars in the mass market right now running it and that produces a great reduction in well-to-wheel 'interference'. Granted CNG is non-sustainable but it can be used as a stop gap till other renewables are found - much in the way you're using Stranded NG.

You're also stating EV have there hang-ups - again the pace of development is such that I can name OEs that have EV ready or in final trials for market that have practical ability and range.

As this is the only place I have seen your fuel mentioned how are you planning to capture the publics attention for you fuel? or will this be left to the OEs once they've took it on board?

If you're not expecting 5-10k vehicles to be retorfitted can I ask what you're target market is? because like CNG/LPG/BIO/E-XX I believe you need to prove the fuel has a mass market ability prior to OEs seriously considering it. Because it is one HUGE sell you're aiming for as far as I can see (please correct me if I've got this wrong) but you want OEs, most of which are coughing there last to take an existing engine within there range, restructure the fuelling system for your fuel, the internals for High compression, the materials for reliability in high octane explosions, test, evaluate and make production viable even though there are no companies on-board as far as can see from the other side of the pond, to sell the fuel to motorists. You also therefore have to sell it to fuel companies or some one with an infrastructure who can supply a need for the fuel. Depending on modifications I'm guessing it may have to be admissable to the car owner's insurer, so they will have to know and understand the technology otherwise they may refuse to insure/charge huge fees on retro fitted cars. You are asking all of this plus stuff I probably haven't even mentioned on the back of a website, a pdf and without a working prototype?
yes I know the Dutch, Flemish and Germans used it in the war era but it has been dropped since, if I remember correctly due to the lack of burn lubrication causing reliability issues??? can't remember fully, but i'm sure that'll show up in testing if its a real problem.

I'm sorry this sounds hugely negative, but as an engineer I'm naturally sceptical until I have sufficient info to hand! Don't get me wrong I love the idea of an enert fuel that can power existing engines and make them practically ZE
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:31 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robchalmers View Post
It may be me missing how this whole thing works but in your slide bar the chain it say the ZF has to be decomposed before used as fuel - are you saying that happens in the car's gas tank or at the gas station or at a refinery? Also I'm intrigued as to what parts need to be added, removed or modified in a retrofit generically speaking like fuel pump, fuel lines, filters, ecu, intake control ecu, intake manifold, exhaust.

You say E85 is not accepted but I can think of at least 6 OEs that have cars in the mass market right now running it and that produces a great reduction in well-to-wheel 'interference'. Granted CNG is non-sustainable but it can be used as a stop gap till other renewables are found - much in the way you're using Stranded NG.

You're also stating EV have there hang-ups - again the pace of development is such that I can name OEs that have EV ready or in final trials for market that have practical ability and range.

As this is the only place I have seen your fuel mentioned how are you planning to capture the publics attention for you fuel? or will this be left to the OEs once they've took it on board?

If you're not expecting 5-10k vehicles to be retorfitted can I ask what you're target market is? because like CNG/LPG/BIO/E-XX I believe you need to prove the fuel has a mass market ability prior to OEs seriously considering it. Because it is one HUGE sell you're aiming for as far as I can see (please correct me if I've got this wrong) but you want OEs, most of which are coughing there last to take an existing engine within there range, restructure the fuelling system for your fuel, the internals for High compression, the materials for reliability in high octane explosions, test, evaluate and make production viable even though there are no companies on-board as far as can see from the other side of the pond, to sell the fuel to motorists. You also therefore have to sell it to fuel companies or some one with an infrastructure who can supply a need for the fuel. Depending on modifications I'm guessing it may have to be admissable to the car owner's insurer, so they will have to know and understand the technology otherwise they may refuse to insure/charge huge fees on retro fitted cars. You are asking all of this plus stuff I probably haven't even mentioned on the back of a website, a pdf and without a working prototype?
yes I know the Dutch, Flemish and Germans used it in the war era but it has been dropped since, if I remember correctly due to the lack of burn lubrication causing reliability issues??? can't remember fully, but i'm sure that'll show up in testing if its a real problem.

I'm sorry this sounds hugely negative, but as an engineer I'm naturally sceptical until I have sufficient info to hand! Don't get me wrong I love the idea of an enert fuel that can power existing engines and make them practically ZE
No problem Rob asking good questions.

Let me first say that ZeroFuel & it's tech is proprietary, so I can only revel so much. Also, we have NDA's with the X prize competition & a major OE, so again I am limited to what I can say about the tech & our marketing.

ZeroFuel as it sits in the fuel tank is non-flammable, non-explosive, non-toxic, being a urea water based solution. Huge safety & environmentally advancement.

ZF is pumped through an on board reformer (this is our tech) which is activated by exhaust heat (in an ice, voltage in a FC) producing NH3 & H2 on demand, to small buffer tanks for each gas, then injected into the engine.

The whole process & components are very similar to current tech. ZF eliminates all emissions equipment except an O2 sensor & uses a dual rail fuel system, one for each fuel. ECU is remapped for this use. High compression components are common to diesel applications & add less then we can save in eliminating emissions equipment. We can save the OE cost in building an ICE vehicle now, while fitting every consumer segment.

E85 & most ethanol products are expensive (subsidized), dirty, disrupt food supply, uses tremendous amounts of water (50:1 to grow corn). I'm in the NE & know of only 1 E85 station that is 75 miles from me.

Affordable EV's, with acceptable range, for the masses are years off. I do not see many consumers spending 30-50k on 2 passenger city cars. Tesla is trying to build a nice EV, but I'm sure by the time it hits the market it will be 50K+. Look at his roadster price hikes. Not for the average consumer.

Our team is entered into the X prize competition. We will be the only 3 car team, with the worlds only privately owned fuel cell vehicle, & a true viable alternative fuel. The press is starting to build on the X prize & the 110 teams from around the world that are entered. A big mag just picked the 10 teams they like & Alternative Fuel Sciences & ZeroFuel were 1 of the 10. We're excited about that.

Urea is already a 130 million ton a year commodity, to ramp up for more by using stranded gas, etc will be easy & economic to scale.

As far as mass market appeal, testing etc. With ZeroFuel you have a sustainable zero emission fuel that will cost less then gasoline, support all market segments, help keep USD in the US (Euro's in Europe) not disrupt food supply & support many other industries, we feel it is a win win for all.

FYI I'm on vaca from 7/12-7/26, so I will not be posting.
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Old 07-10-2009, 04:09 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 07-13-2009, 03:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Gain or loss in efficiency?

All other things being equal, which they never are, I would expect a passenger car with your fuel/reformer/engine to provide better well/wheel efficiency compared to gasoline. Duh. The mere presence of your team in the X-competition tells us this. Of course, there are about 27 steps that have to be accounted for before we get a hard number for how fuel efficient your fuel/engine system really is.

But if I put a gun to your head, and just made you pick a number as your best guess, what is the overall change in efficiency with your ideal product, compared to a conventional diesel in the same vehicle. Just for fun.

And of course, due to various non-disclosure agreements, you probably can't just show me the math for a typical example of stranded NG ----> fuel in tank, and miles traveled, but it would be fun to see it.

Finest regards,

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Old 07-13-2009, 03:48 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Dude I'm aware that this would be a miniscule W2W fuel as it would have a -ve value for the C02 capture and techinally it wouldn't have a well . I was one about the W2W reduction from Gasoline down to E85 may be I didn't explain myself properly - sorry

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