Fuel Of Tomorrow Here Today

[bennelson]

I guess I am not that afraid of spills - we already know how damaging spills of various fossil fuels can be, so we are very careful to avoid having that happen.

I am interested in learning more about this technology as a "long range" fuel.

Electric can be amazingly clean. I usually get a bit frustrated when people talk about dirty electricity from coal. The truth is, you can get completely renewable wind/solar/tide/biogas, etc electricity anywhere in this country, or even make it yourself. My electric vehicles charge from renewable energy sources bought through the grid.

It's interesting that the X-Prize requirements have a very specific range minimum per fueling, which pretty much eliminates traditional battery electric vehicles from participating.

If it weren't for that one requirement, two vehicles I have built in my garage would both qualify for the X-Prize.

The ZeroFuel meets the range requirements.

Good luck on the X-Prize competition! Keep some good positive information coming. There are a lot of snake-oilers out there, and they always try to keep things all secret-y.

On this forum, we love DIY, positive, friendly shared knowledge and discussion.

[ZeroFuel]

Originally Posted by conradpdx

I did read that part of wiki. It just didn't have any bearing to the topic, and I'm a bit surprised that you'd point that all out since in an offhand way it exposes another eco-hazard (one that I did pick out right away, but didn't really want to get into).

And thats got to do with what happens when it's spilled? That much fertilizer spilled into a river or lake could be devastating to that body of water. Not only would directly kill higher organisms, it would also feed the algae (which already really like this stuff) which could choke out nearly all other lifeforms. Sure the other plants in the lake would love it, but they being a more complex organism process the nutrients slower than the algae can and slower than the algae can reporduce.

As it now in the ocean we have what are called green tides and dead zones where nothing lives. It was a mystery that has been recently was figured out, and it is algae and other smaller organisms for some unknown reason undergoing a massive population growth and choking out all the fish that didn't escape the cloud. If this happens in a system as big as the pacific ocean imagine the results in a smaller body of water.

This is also one of the goals of "green" soaps and detergents. They try to remove the fertilizer elements of soap so that it wont go down the drain into the water table. Just for this reason.

Let me cut off the oil spill retort to this. Oil floats and though it's messy and ugly is is containable, your product is water soluble there would be impossible to clean it up, and in fact would dramatically change the chemical composition of the body of water.

My last point is I didn't read the side bar. I'm one of many that wont. I'm not going to risk it on a thread that someone posts after creating a new account from left field promising in vague language to have solved the fossil fuel problem. And personally I'm not sure I'm all that excited about something that doesn't even have running prototype yet.

Now after all this I do wish you good luck, and I can appreciate people efforts into looking for solutions. After all science is the process of getting it wrong a thousand times hoping to get it right once. But I don't see how any product is going to compete with electricity, the distribution aspects are already in place and it's getting "greener" everyday.

I learned a long time ago that you can't please everyone. So that being said I will answer you, but have no expectations.

After reading your first post I had assumed that you had not looked at the slide deck. Coming onto this thread without having at least some aspect of the process & relying on a wikipedia site, I find intellectually dishonest. There is more then enough info on our site to show viewers that this is a novel approach, to a serious problem, by people who have been involved with energy since the 1970's. Being afraid of a pdf download is a pretty lame excuse.

I brought up the synthetic process just to prove the point that you do not understand the technology.

OK, you have painted this dooms day effect of a ZeroFuel spill, which is now highly diluted with water. Lets say two tanker trucks crash into your lake, what would be the end result. ZeroFuel would have less of an impact then fossil fuel.

Lets raise the stakes (because you like electricity) how about a nuclear accident, say at Indian Point. We are pro nuclear, but your argument of a carbamide disaster has many holes.

The DOT rates Carbamide at the safest standard they can issue. 0-0-0-0. Flammability, corrosion, toxic, and overall environmental rating. one of the reasons the fuel got its name. Even in it's solid state before we water it down. (We can use salt water also, just in case you had a problem with that.) Take a look at some of the fossil fuel ratings & compare.

You have no idea at what stage the project is in except it has not been installed on a vehicle. We have bench tested a unit that is ready to be produced for vehicles. Quick history lesson. Back in WWII (the big one) when the Germans invaded Belgium they confiscated all the fossil fuel. The Belgium's had a supply of ammonia & retrofitted their public transportation system. Pretty good idea. Zerofuel is ammonia on demand, a big step forward.

OK, your a big fan of electricity. We like it also, but It has it's pro & cons like all fuels. But right now on the big scale there are more cons. Lets start with range. We don't have it & until technology can store 100kwh, long range is out of the question. Cost of replacing batteries are high. Can we meet the new demand of an electric fleet? Not to mention the dead of winter in Detroit or the Heat of summer in Dallas, your range has been dropped dramatically by outside temperature, heat, A/C, wipers, etc.

The ICE generates free heat & we do have a patent pending on free A/C.

Making hydrogen from natural gas is still cleaner then electricity from coal, there for a plus for ZeroFuel.

I see you edited your post from what was shown in my email. I got to tell you I'm glad you changed it because I was going to rip you a new one on your opinion of patent holders.

[ZeroFuel]

Originally Posted by bennelson

I guess I am not that afraid of spills - we already know how damaging spills of various fossil fuels can be, so we are very careful to avoid having that happen.

I am interested in learning more about this technology as a "long range" fuel.

Electric can be amazingly clean. I usually get a bit frustrated when people talk about dirty electricity from coal. The truth is, you can get completely renewable wind/solar/tide/biogas, etc electricity anywhere in this country, or even make it yourself. My electric vehicles charge from renewable energy sources bought through the grid.

It's interesting that the X-Prize requirements have a very specific range minimum per fueling, which pretty much eliminates traditional battery electric vehicles from participating.

If it weren't for that one requirement, two vehicles I have built in my garage would both qualify for the X-Prize.

The ZeroFuel meets the range requirements.

Good luck on the X-Prize competition! Keep some good positive information coming. There are a lot of snake-oilers out there, and they always try to keep things all secret-y.

On this forum, we love DIY, positive, friendly shared knowledge and discussion.

Thanks Ben

It's nice to here from someone who understands the potential of our fuel. Win, lose, or draw at the X Prixe we will know we did our best to advance mankind.

I would encourage you to contact the X Prize, they are very nice people. The final rules are coming out soon & if I am not mistaken they are going to allow electric vehicles to change out batteries. So that may make the difference in your effort. But don't wait the cut off for all applications is 1/1/09.

Pm me if you want any advice or contacts at the X Prize.

Keep it low & slow

[bennelson]

Nice to hear about the potential changes in the final rules on the X-Prize.

I have been kinda ranting about that in another thread....

[conradpdx]

I wasn't trying to compare your fuel to other fuels. I was pointing out basic things that are missing in your sales pitch. Your posts and "sidebar" are soooo heavily laden with with lollipops and pink bunnies. Totally clean, totally safe, totally renewable. Yet it's made from natural gas, your side bar mentions it's imported, and it does have potential risks. I'm not saying it's not valid or wont work or even that it's better or worse. I'm just cleaning off the rose colored paint your covering everyones glasses with. You don't even like it being called synthetic pee, which it is. If it sounds too good to be true than it isn't. And if it wasn't me it'd be someone else.

Now what I said originally about patents is true. Any moron can have one. It only takes a description, some money, and filling out a form. Most the stuff with patents never makes the markets and is of little to no use. For every good idea with a patent, there are 100 patents that aren't good ideas. I edited it cause I felt it was being too condesending.

[ZeroFuel]

Originally Posted by conradpdx

I wasn't trying to compare your fuel to other fuels. I was pointing out basic things that are missing in your sales pitch. Your posts and "sidebar" are soooo heavily laden with with lollipops and pink bunnies. Totally clean, totally safe, totally renewable. Yet it's made from natural gas, your side bar mentions it's imported, and it does have potential risks. I'm not saying it's not valid or wont work or even that it's better or worse. I'm just cleaning off the rose colored paint your covering everyones glasses with. You don't even like it being called synthetic pee, which it is. If it sounds too good to be true than it isn't. And if it wasn't me it'd be someone else.

Now what I said originally about patents is true. Any moron can have one. It only takes a description, some money, and filling out a form. Most the stuff with patents never makes the markets and is of little to no use. For every good idea with a patent, there are 100 patents that aren't good ideas. I edited it cause I felt it was being too condesending.

Yes, you have filled my expectations, & you still don't get it. We are not trying to hide anything, it is all out there in the open. And again, it is not urine.

There is an abundance of stranded gas, that is gas that is flared off at the drilling sites. Totally wasted. So do we use the current art to make hydrogen till the renewable is contributing, or just let it burn? The US has plenty of natural gas, we can use it for the production of hydrogen & our fuel.

The US already has a large Carbamide production output. To ramp up would be quick & economically viable so that importing could be reduced to 0 without the same consequences of fossil fuels being restricted.

You also do not understand or want to acknowledged our fuel sequesters CO2. We can capture CO2 from thousands of factories around the world to produce our fuel while cleaning up the environment.

Do you understand that our fuel supports food supply? We won't need gov't subsides as other bio fuels, it won't effect food prices, but more important it helps put food back into mouths of starving people around the world.

As far as your opinion of patent holders, that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. You have no idea or concept of the time, energy & money involved in the process. The thousands of people over the years that have contributed to this world you condemn to a single sentence. We hold over 40 patents, many more pending, publications, etc. This shows a big flaw in your character that "any moron can have a patent."

Your the kind of person that wants perfection. The only way you will find it here on this earth is to invent a time machine & patent it (no wait that would make you a moron) and go back to the Garden of Eden.

This will be the last time I respond to you, say what you will, us morons have better things to do.

[robchalmers]

I like the idea - the general concept, but I'm worried over the theory of wanting manufacturers to design engines to run on your fuel - i'm struggling to see that as viable in short or medium term when most will be ditching for EV/FC in the next whole generation. Granted you'll be able to supply FCs. How much do you think it will cost to convert you average family sedan ( I'm guessing you'll have put this in a business model somewhere) as this will have a Large effect on people willingness to convert.

also from you slide bar your H2 route is quite short - How big is the infrastruct required in this? I mean could it be carried out behind a gas station thus solving the difficulties in a Hydrogen infrastructure becoming a reality??

[ZeroFuel]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

I like the idea - the general concept, but I'm worried over the theory of wanting manufacturers to design engines to run on your fuel - i'm struggling to see that as viable in short or medium term when most will be ditching for EV/FC in the next whole generation. Granted you'll be able to supply FCs. How much do you think it will cost to convert you average family sedan ( I'm guessing you'll have put this in a business model somewhere) as this will have a Large effect on people willingness to convert.

also from you slide bar your H2 route is quite short - How big is the infrastruct required in this? I mean could it be carried out behind a gas station thus solving the difficulties in a Hydrogen infrastructure becoming a reality??

Hey Rob

The ICE is here to stay for a long time. The SAE world congress just showed many new technologies that will fit nicely with ZeroFuel. Remember, how ever cool EV's may be, they will most likely not fit all consumer segments & needs. Even the urbanite (the EV's most potential consumer) who can not plug in, will have issues with an EV. I just did an interview with an editor who lives in a city & would not be able to plug in. He is getting a hybrid that could be supported by ZF.

Our business plan is primarily for the OE's to build vehicles to run on ZeroFuel. The engineering changes are fairly straightforward to run an ICE on NH3 & H2. With the 130+ octane of NH3, the compression ratio can be much higher, more efficient then today's ICE's. No emissions equipment will be required such as catalytic converters & particulate filters, thereby saving the OE's substantial money per vehicle while also simplifying the vehicle. NH3 & H2 only emit N & H2O.

On the retrofit market, it will be best for the Licensed OE's to make kits for their dealers to install, thereby protecting the consumers warranty & helping to bring $$$ back to the dealer & OE networks. AFS projects retrofit cost to be 1K per cylinder. This price could drop as volume increases.

H2 & NH3 fuel cell vehicles will be viable options with the safe storage of NH3 & H2 provided by ZeroFuel. This is the break through needed for clean efficient vehicles so that R&D will shift to supper efficient ICE's & the ultimate EV, fuel cells.

As far as infrastructure, carbamide (urea) is already available at any mass market retailer. (Fertilizer 46-0-0) The EPA has mandated all new trucks to have urea srubbing systems installed by 2010. All truck stops & dealers nationwide will have urea (ZeroFuel) available.

ZeroFuel is made from H2, N, & CO2. It is a solid when produced.

H2 is produced primarily from steam reformation of natural gas, a fairly clean & cheap art. H2 can be produced from renewable also. One of our goals is to have the current art & the renewable producing side by side with the renewable eventually making all or most of the H2 for ZF. At that level ZF's GHG emissions is "0".

Another form of making H2 & using a valuable resource that is being totally wasted is stranded/associated gas. Part of our business plan is to setup skid pad factories at the drilling sites that have stranded gas. Steam reformation can be performed & the N & CO2 is drawn from the atmosphere. You get solid carbamide (ZF), cheap & safe to ship.

Factories will give AFS continues N & CO2 feedstock to produce ZF. The CO2 is sequestered and only emitted upon combustion, producing a net "0" CO2 emissions.

The 2 fuels produced by the ZF on board decomposition process is NH3 & H2. NH3 emits N & H20, H2 emits H20.

Here is what ZeroFuel has solved:

Safety: non-toxic, non-flammable or explosive

Storage: "0" PSI, easy & safe to transport, 0-0-0-0 DOT rated

Range: vehicle only limited by size of fuel tank

Emissions: "0", N & H2O

Sustainable: endless feedstock, does not interrupt food supply

Performance: can fit any & all consumer segments with NH3 130+ octane

Lowest cost per mile of any other fuel: with the above arts, & home filling stations able to buy in quantities.

I hope this has answered your questions.

[robchalmers]

Personally - working for an OE thats part of a bigger group (I'm not speaking for them and my view may not be theirs- disclaimer) but I doubt that they'll want to produce a car that runs on a one market fuel. Thinking of the effort that has gone into R&D purely on one engine for flex-fuel, where if the is no supply of one fuel you can still use another its hard to imagine them creating pretty much a new class of engine in addition to the Gas and diesel in current model ranges, not to mention the changes in car infrastructure for the different fuelling set-ups / heat dissapation / cooling, all of which would need to be tested and certified for multiple markets. I think you'd have to be looking 5-10 years down the line by which time alot of OEs are looking to have already start in model cycle development of alternates. That would leave you with the aftersales markets and I doubt you'll see many bar most hardcore paying $4k ($1k per cylinder) to convert 5k family run-a-round.

Sorry to sound like I' having a downer there

Also a couple of things from the bullet point above:

'Range: vehicle only limited by size of fuel tank' can't you say that of any fuel in any vehicle?

'Emissions: "0", N & H2O' have any toxicology studies been done into the affects on the body of high N environments - just if all the cars in a rush hour jam are running ZF we could have health risk of the quantity of the smog issue we have now.

[captainslug]

If this is the fuel of the future, then the all-important question is: Will it be able to power my flying car?