Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-27-2010, 05:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
Wiki Mod
 
Weather Spotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Midland MI, USA
Posts: 2,042

Max - '14 Ford C-Max SEL
Thanks: 228
Thanked 304 Times in 210 Posts
bingo! if the car is designed to use E10 it will have a higher compression ratio, and just change the timing if it gets E0. Some cars run better with E10 (mine).

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-27-2010, 07:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,961

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,630
Thanked 3,127 Times in 2,328 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weather Spotter View Post
redpoint5, where is your source? The burden is on you to prove your numbers (ethanol is not guilty until proven otherwise).
Here, as well as any other website you might find:
Exact Low Energy Content of Ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEnemy View Post
Actually red is correct pure ethanol has about 66% the energy of regular gas.

The problem with his statement is that we are running E-10, the difference in energy between E-10 and E-0 is only about 3.5%. So if your getting 50mpg, you should loose only 1.75mpg. Some cars like one of mine lost more because they don't seem to like E-10 for some reason or another.

One thing to keep in mind is if you are running E-100 you would have an octain of 122, in which you could run a much higher compression and possibly more than offset the lower energy per gallon.

Ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Formula 1 car, yes please. MPG be damned. Actually, an efficient car could probably be made using pure ethanol for the very reasons you mentioned. It would be interesting to see how far that technology could go, although I don't think it can make up for the 1/3 energy density hit.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 08:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
Wiki Mod
 
Weather Spotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Midland MI, USA
Posts: 2,042

Max - '14 Ford C-Max SEL
Thanks: 228
Thanked 304 Times in 210 Posts
Good article. Its the BTU numbers that matter as octane is just a knock rating.

A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B.
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.

How much should you pay for E10 and E85?

If regular gas is $3.00/gallon you should pay
$2.90 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$2.13 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
If regular gas is $2.00/gallon you should pay
$1.93 / gallon for E10 (10% ethanol).
$1.42 / gallon for E85 (85% ethanol).
Then you will be paying the same amount per mile driven.

The formula is this: For EX, where X is the percent ethanol

Ethanol price should = Gasoline price times (100 – X + X/1.52)/100
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2010, 02:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,735

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,571
Thanked 3,508 Times in 2,195 Posts
BTU content does NOT directly translate to BSFC! You say ethanol has 33% less energy BUT I challenge you or anyone else to prove that results in an exactly 33% fe reduction. Cuz it DOESN'T. Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel and burns a bit differently.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2010, 03:09 AM   #25 (permalink)
Basjoos Wannabe
 
ShadeTreeMech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 870

The Van - '97 Mercury Villager gs
90 day: 19.8 mpg (US)

Lyle the Kindly Viking - '99 Volvo V70
90 day: 25.82 mpg (US)
Thanks: 174
Thanked 49 Times in 32 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
BTU content does NOT directly translate to BSFC! You say ethanol has 33% less energy BUT I challenge you or anyone else to prove that results in an exactly 33% fe reduction. Cuz it DOESN'T. Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel and burns a bit differently.
I have a '97 Merc Villager that gets between 20-21 mpg. When I ran e-85, I managed 17+ mpg (17.4 I think). My algebra is a bit rough, but e-100 would have netted 13.2 mpg, so 17 mpg isn't bad.

I ran e-85 in my 98 Maxima (remember, neither one is an official "flex fuel" vehicle, just fuel injected.) I got 22 mpg, when I was getting about 25 mpg. This figure is a bit unreliable since I was stuck in a bad traffic jam for a while on this and I was running the AC pretty heavy. Again, nowhere near the 33% reduction; it was actually a decent tank. I had a vacuum leak at the time, and that made things a bit rough in that it kept dying on me. AND I wasn't on an economy run, more like a lets get our butts home ASAP run.

While it may have less energy to burn, it does burn a bit differently, and may offset its lower energy content with a slightly more efficient burn per available BTU.
__________________
RIP Maxima 1997-2012


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that it's not rational to do either speed or fuel economy mods for economic reasons. You do it as a form of recreation, for the fun and for the challenge.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2010, 02:02 PM   #26 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,961

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,630
Thanked 3,127 Times in 2,328 Posts
I LOVE anecdotal evidence, conclusions come so easily with them. The site I liked to has wonderful anecdotal stories of getting exactly the calculated mileage based on energy content.

I have made NO statements about what mileage to expect from running ethanol. Instead, I simply stated some facts for people to consider. Further, I have conceded that the higher octane should allow for efficiencies that exceed the calculated energy mileage.

My worthless anecdotal story is the greater than calculated drop in MPG when Oregon mandated E10.

I was initially excited about ethanol as a fuel, but the more I learn about it the less enthusiastic I become.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!

Last edited by redpoint5; 08-28-2010 at 02:10 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 04:34 AM   #27 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,735

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,571
Thanked 3,508 Times in 2,195 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
FYI- ethanol contains ~2/3 of the amount of energy as gasoline. This means an engine running 100% ethanol would get only 66% of the MPG that a gasoline engine would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
I have made NO statements about what mileage to expect from running ethanol. Instead, I simply stated some facts for people to consider.
If you say so
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 04:49 AM   #28 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
euromodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 4,666

GasDwarf - '13 Volkswagen up! EcoFuel CNG
Thanks: 176
Thanked 641 Times in 508 Posts
Looking at the fuel logs of some Volvo flexfuel cars, their real-life FC is between 15% and 30% worse on E85 than it is on regular gasoline.
__________________
GasDwarf's fuel consumption :
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 10:27 AM   #29 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Independence, KY
Posts: 606

Blue Meanie - '02 Volkswagon Golf TDI
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 48.52 mpg (US)

Wife's car - '05 WV Passat TDI

Rudy - '94 Chevy C2500
Thanks: 90
Thanked 46 Times in 43 Posts
This could be tested somewhat easily by running a gas powered generator with a pre-measured amount of of fuel. Warm up the generator let sit for ~5min run with 1/8gal of gas time from startup to empty, do the same with E10 and E85. Calculate the difference in time to get the change in FE, the FE will not be in mpg but idle run time.
__________________
I move at the speed of awesome.


"It's not rocket surgery!" -MetroMPG
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2010, 09:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
Basjoos Wannabe
 
ShadeTreeMech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 870

The Van - '97 Mercury Villager gs
90 day: 19.8 mpg (US)

Lyle the Kindly Viking - '99 Volvo V70
90 day: 25.82 mpg (US)
Thanks: 174
Thanked 49 Times in 32 Posts
problem with using a carbureted engine for this expirement is that the carb isn't set up for alcohol, while a fuel injected vehicle will adapt to the fuel to an extent. I somehow doubt a carbed engine can run on e-85 without being adapted to it.

And I think euromodder is about right on the 15-30% decrease in FC; I personally saw a decrease of 15% running the stuff compared to regular gas.

__________________
RIP Maxima 1997-2012


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that it's not rational to do either speed or fuel economy mods for economic reasons. You do it as a form of recreation, for the fun and for the challenge.
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Tags
bad fuel, bad gas, mpg, water gas

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EcoModding for Beginners: Getting great gas mileage. SVOboy EcoModding Central 55 08-20-2012 11:34 PM
Pick Your Poison - Whose gas to buy? SVOboy General Efficiency Discussion 84 11-22-2010 10:19 PM
Article: Lean burn on an otherwise stock engine (testing Acura RSX K-Series engine) tjts1 EcoModding Central 4 01-07-2010 01:22 PM
MPG Decline from Colder Weather or Winter Blend Gas or ??? cfg83 EcoModding Central 11 11-24-2009 11:55 PM
Basic EcoDriving Techniques and Instrumentation SVOboy Instrumentation 2 11-17-2007 11:38 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com