Gashole Movie

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Humm... Check your Forbes 500. Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and all the rest, not a whole lot of land developers & financiers in that lot. Business owners, yes, but would they have had the idea that they started the business on if they hadn't gotten the technical education first?

Of course there are other ways to make money, if you have the aptitude, but the surest way to go from being a have-not to having at least modest prosperity is a technical education.

First off, the Forbes 500 lists the biggest businesses in America...what do you expect? Warren Buffett, the richest man in the world, made his money through investments and finance. Go to your local marina and check out the megayachts...I bet the owners are either financiers, business owners, or land developers.

Secondly, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and Steve Jobs never graduated college. Bill Gates and Larry Ellison gained their wealth through cut-throat business practices reminiscent of Standard Oil and Carnegie Steel. Steve Jobs gained his wealth by exploiting people like Steve Wozniak. All three are highly intelligent, savvy business people...but PhD's they are not.

Americans have a love affair with Horatio Alger Jr. and his "rags to riches" stories. Every society is made up of the haves and have nots. The middle class are merely the have's cronies who get paid extra for loyalty. You may be happy sitting on $120,000/yr, but you are not the one in control.

I'm not trying to say that America and its ways are evil. There is a lot worse out there, but as much as we hate to believe it, we are far from perfect. To an American, a mansion is a sign of success. To me, it is utter failure.

- LostCause

[Bror Jace]

Lost Cause, you ask a lot of good questions and make some good points, but you extrapolate to the point where we (Americans) are all doomed in the (near?) future. I can't agree with you to that extent. Fifty years ago, the communists were going to do us in, then twenty years ago, it was the Japanese. Now? The Chinese ... or the muslims. The doomsday predictions change ... but America continues on regardless.

The Gashole film (remember, the original topic everyone?) may be interesting … but it may just be another conspiracy film … like Moore’s Roger & Me which was amusing … but misleading. The biggest problem with oil/gasoline/energy is that North Americans have allowed themselves to become addicted to vast quantities of cheap energy, specifically liquid fossil fuels. It’s our own fault … not the government and not some star chamber of oil executives. I have driven a 4-cylinder car all my life (by choice) but most members of my family have V-8 powered vehicles … just because.

I am not particularly comfortable with the wealth distribution in the world, but every time a government tries to rectify the situation, they make things worse by killing off the entrepreneurial spirit of their people and locking most into a bleak, lower-middle-class rut. Achievement is punished, slacking becomes routine and corruption festers. Free-market capitalism isn’t perfect … it’s just the guideline that has provided the highest standard of living in the history of human civilization.

Along the lines of the things that jamesqf has said, how's this for a conspiracy: We have a culture that has decided superficial, unthinking slackers with poor personal grooming are the “cool” people while doing well in school (especially in math & science) is for “losers” … otherwise known as geeks and nerds. Now that’s a recipe for national deterioration!

If money (wealth) is the opiate for the masses, please pass me the pipe! Part of the wealth distribution problem in the world is because it takes money to make money. Your theory seems to be that we will get so rich that it will be the end of us all. I just can’t quite follow the logic. Yes, materialism for the sake of materialism won’t make for a meaningful life … but no one says it does. Well, the superficial cultural nonsense you see on TV states this … but please tell me you get your values from a better source! The fact that a lot of Americans don’t is a large part of the problem.

Personally? People hear these nutty conspiracy theories about this group or that group having the real power, believe them and then complain ... but are never inspired to actually do anything because the conspiracy is so vast and powerful, there’s nothing you can do to counter it. We all are just supposed to sit there and endure our woeful lot in life.

Actually, if I had to pick something, I’d say that conspiracy theories are the opiate for the masses.

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by LostCause

4.) I highly doubt that.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/ma...about_swe.html

The rest of your comments make no sense. Per capita income does not need to take into account the cost of living. It's income before expenses. The rest of the stats come from the World Bank and the United Nations, and they evaluate each country the same way.

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by Bror Jace

...but you extrapolate to the point where we (Americans) are all doomed in the (near?) future.

I'll agree with you whole-heartedly there. I get carried away, but the point is that the economy isn't designed to last forever.

Your theory seems to be that we will get so rich that it will be the end of us all.

Environmental degradation is a result of wealth. The billions of poor have caused a minute fraction of global warming. The world today literally cannot support everyone living an American standard of life.

Why are we afraid of China and India becoming wealthy? Today they are sucking oil fields dry. I can't drive a Hummer anymore because Cheng Duan is becoming a middle class citizen. How dare he!

Originally Posted by Arminius

The rest of your comments make no sense...

There's a difference between GDP per capita and GDP (PPP) per capita. I posted both. I'm sorry my comments are gibberish.

If you consider economics as the sole measure of quality of life, you are missing the bigger picture. The United States is the richest nation in the world yet continually scores mid-teens on quality of life indices. Bhutan actively works towards the happiness of their people. America actively works towards the happiness of the stock market. Somewhere along the line we got our ends and means mixed up...

Originally Posted by NewEconomist Blog

...the main argument usually advanced in favor of Nordic social-democracies: that a huge dose of public intervention can bring about a lot of socially desirable outcomes that are not fully reflected in the GDP per capita. Like, for instance, a low level of poverty (OECD figures), a high level of subjective satisfaction, a less unequal society or a reduced gender pay gap (though see this and this on the glass ceiling). Indeed a composite index of 16 social indicators computed by the OECD finds Sweden well-ahead of the other developed countries (pdf, p 27). Now, I know that not all these results would necessarily sway a card-carrying libertarian (what’s wrong about income inequality anyway?), but surely some should, like the fact that social mobility is a lot higher in Sweden (and in the other Nordic countries) that in the U.S. or in Britain.

I'm getting carried away. I'll shut up now.

- LostCause

[Bror Jace]

"Environmental degradation is a result of wealth. The billions of poor have caused a minute fraction of global warming. The world today literally cannot support everyone living an American standard of life.

Why are we afraid of China and India becoming wealthy? Today they are sucking oil fields dry. I can't drive a Hummer anymore because Cheng Duan is becoming a middle class citizen. How dare he!"

I agree ... almost 100%.

Look at the bottles by the side of the road in this country ... we, as a people, are obviously too wealthy to be bothered returning containers for the deposit. So, Mother Earth has to take one for the team.

My solution would be to crank up the deposit from $0.05 (in most places) to $0.10 - 0.20 and you'd see compliance increase ... or it would provide a source of income for homeless/unemployed people. Either way, they'd get recycled.

As for the vehicles Americans drive? The price of fuel will take care of that soon enough. Market forces work best ... but in this case the price went up so quickly, it was a harsh lesson for the great unwashed to learn. Oh well.

[johnpr]

well yeah, as Americans we should live an american style life, and how dare the chinese think they should live an american way of life, after all they are in china. isnt it that simple, we do need someone to work for pennies on the dollar and even the poor americans wont do that so thats what we need the chinese for, and anyhow, if there cost of living increases than there would be no reason to import from them so they would suffer a crash and that would be so much worse than having to work for 15 cents per day.

just kidding, but seriously some people really do try to hard to "live american" i know to many people swallowed in dept or who purchase alot of junk and then complain they have no money :shakes head: everyone has an equal oportunity , its just what you do with it, the easy answer to success is buy less, use more efficient means of doing things, be happy with what you do have but strive to improve yourself and the world. life is simple and better that way.

[Bror Jace]

Yes Johnpr, what we have in this country, more than anything else, is a poverty of culture. Resources are available to us ... but freedom means also having the freedom to make bad decisions ... and plenty here are making really bad ones that favor short-term, superficial, material gain.

"Everyone has an equal opportunity, it's just what you do with it. The easy answer to success is buy less, use more efficient means of doing things, be happy with what you do have but strive to improve yourself and the world. Life is simple and better that way."

That's exactly how I live my life ... though my income would allow me to spend a lot more. Some friends and family call me cheap ... but it's they who do not 'get it.'

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by LostCause

If you consider economics as the sole measure of quality of life, you are missing the bigger picture. The United States is the richest nation in the world yet continually scores mid-teens on quality of life indices. Bhutan actively works towards the happiness of their people. America actively works towards the happiness of the stock market. Somewhere along the line we got our ends and means mixed up...

I didn't bring up income; you did. Also, you create a false dichotomy, as if Sweden doesn't have a stock market and cares nothing about it, and America does, but cares about nothing else. Your position is extreme and emotional, but is far from reflecting the reality. Sweden cares about its stock market just like we care about ours.


As for the NewEconomist's comments, I think they make my point. Given the opportunity, almost no one wants to live in a country where nothing has changed for 40 years, unless it has come from the outside. No, there is not more upward mobility, since there are only so many positions available at the top. Unless there is class, gender or racial discrimination, this is usually the case.

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by Arminius

...Also, you create a false dichotomy, as if Sweden doesn't have a stock market and cares nothing about it, and America does, but cares about nothing else. Your position is extreme and emotional, but is far from reflecting the reality. Sweden cares about its stock market just like we care about ours.

I'll agree on the emotional aspect, but I never said Sweden is a model nation. I brought them up because the average American equates socialism to the bleakness of the USSR. Sweden has shown that making an effort towards a welfare state does not spell doom.

As for the NewEconomist's comments, I think they make my point. Given the opportunity, almost no one wants to live in a country where nothing has changed for 40 years, unless it has come from the outside. No, there is not more upward mobility, since there are only so many positions available at the top. Unless there is class, gender or racial discrimination, this is usually the case.

I guess this is just where we differ in opinion. I think upward mobility is only a virtue until it establishes a place you are willing to live for the rest of your life.

Beyond that, the only change worthwhile is that which improves your role as a human. Buying a 4,000ft2 house is not improvement. Improvement is struggling through a decade worth of school to become a doctor only to serve the third world.

It's all about the means and the ends. Money is a necessary means. Altruism is a noble ends.

Virtue is of our own choosing. Live as you wish...

- LostCause

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by LostCause

I'll agree on the emotional aspect, but I never said Sweden is a model nation. I brought them up because the average American equates socialism to the bleakness of the USSR. Sweden has shown that making an effort towards a welfare state does not spell doom.

I agree with the people who think of it as doom. Lagging 30 years behind every 70 years would put you 100 years behind after a couple hundered years. That's not for me. I think the answers to our problems have usually come from the future, not the past. Everyone who disagrees with me can't read this, because they don't have a computer.

I guess this is just where we differ in opinion. I think upward mobility is only a virtue until it establishes a place you are willing to live for the rest of your life. When you are satisfied, why would you need change?

I didn't offer any value on upward mobility. You did. I thought that it was ironic, given the position of the NewEconomist.