Gashole Movie

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by Arminius

I agree with the people who think of it as doom. Lagging 30 years behind every 70 years would put you 100 years behind after a couple hundered years. That's not for me. I think the answers to our problems have usually come from the future, not the past. Everyone who disagrees with me can't read this, because they don't have a computer.

I guess the Amish are having it tough these days, what with high gas prices and all.

I didn't offer any value on upward mobility. You did. I thought that it was ironic, given the position of the NewEconomist.

But you did on change.

This topic is spiralling out of control. I value the debate (seriously), but I'm tagging out.

- LostCause

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by LostCause

I guess the Amish are having it tough these days, what with high gas prices and all.

I think they're more concerned with doing their dental work with an ice pick and a wooden mallet than they are about gas prices. Fortunately, we'll continue to advance and solve our problems through research and adaptation. 100 years from now they will still be using that same ice pick and wooden mallet, but at least they'll be doing so by their own choice.

[Shawn D.]

Originally Posted by LostCause

I think we went wrong when America became involved in the cold war.

Commie bad...Money good. oogah oogah.

It would be a serious mistake to believe that the whole situation was only about money. If the west did not oppose the Soviets during the cold war, we would be communist. Do you think we'd even be able to be on such a board as this and/or be able to have this discussion if this were a communist country?

Do you think that the "haves" in the US are too disproportionately wealthy? Try a comparison of the Politburo in the Soviet Union to the Russian people. While you're at it, check out Kazakhstan and other former-Soviet states.

Do you think US corporations are the worst things to happen to the environment? Try a comparison with all the ecologically dead rivers in Eastern Europe and communist/formerly-communist countries where the needs of the state trumped everything else. Hey, all those rusting hulks of Soviet nuclear-powered navy vessels contaminating the seas are really great. Communism did a great job with the Aral Sea, too, didn't it?

Do you think Bush "stole" the election from Gore? Try a comparison with the electoral "system" in communist countries.

Have you ever read "The Gulag Archipelago?"

Sorry to seem so strident, but your flippant "Commie bad...Money good. oogah oogah" really set me off.

[johnpr]

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

If the west did not oppose the Soviets during the cold war, we would be communist. Do you think we'd even be able to be on such a board as this and/or be able to have this discussion if this were a communist country?

so where did you get the "we would be communist" thing? i have never heard that before, and yes if we would have been communist it would be possible that we would have the internet today and free discussion, my friend from russia says she used it all the time before moving here, in fact that is how she met her current husband, and guess what? they are moving back to post communist russia. I know there was a great deal of corruption in the Russian government, but there is a difference between an economic system and how the government is ran.

and yes i will agree with you that countries which where highly corrupted like the soviet union have had a terrible impact on the environment, but that can happen anywhere, seriously we havent been the greatest on the environment either, for instance the US navy dumps rags full of oil into the ocean as soon as they are 50 miles from shore, i know that cant be good for the ocean. how do i know this, my wife was an engineer in the navy and her superiors required it.

my point is, you cant say that because they where communist they embodied all that was bad, we just tend be brainwashed into only seeing the bad, its not that hard to look at the US and find many faults involving pollution, government corruption, money laundering, or poverty.

im not trying to bully you about the whole communist thing but we are far from saints ourselves.

[Shawn D.]

Originally Posted by johnpr

so where did you get the "we would be communist" thing? i have never heard that before

EXCUSE ME? Do you really think that if the Soviets and Chinese were unopposed that the world would have turned out the way it has? Perhaps I should have said "We almost certainly would be communist" instead of making such an absolute statement, but I stand by it nonetheless.

Originally Posted by johnpr

... and yes if we would have been communist it would be possible that we would have the internet today and free discussion, my friend from russia says she used it all the time before moving here, in fact that is how she met her current husband, and guess what? they are moving back to post communist russia.

Sorry, I believe you're wrong there. Your anecdotal story about your friends' opinion is what has happened post-communist, not what likely would have happened if communism had persisted. No, if we had not opposed communism so strongly and for such a long time, Perestroika would have likely never happened. You think China has free discussion? Why don't you ask the jailed political activists and religious leaders? Why don't you ask the Dalai Lama why he doesn't return home? You think North Korea has free discussions?

Originally Posted by johnpr

... and yes i will agree with you that countries which where highly corrupted like the soviet union have had a terrible impact on the environment, but that can happen anywhere, seriously we havent been the greatest on the environment either, for instance the US navy dumps rags full of oil into the ocean as soon as they are 50 miles from shore, i know that cant be good for the ocean. how do i know this, my wife was an engineer in the navy and her superiors required it.

I never said we had a perfect record. Yes, the Navy did have some horrible practices. The operative word is "did."

Originally Posted by johnpr

my point is, you cant say that because they where communist they embodied all that was bad, we just tend be brainwashed into only seeing the bad, its not that hard to look at the US and find many faults involving pollution, government corruption, money laundering, or poverty.

So, pray tell, what good things were there about the Soviet Union? Sorry, buddy, I'm not brainwashed -- I know and recognize the failings of our country.

Originally Posted by johnpr

im not trying to bully you about the whole communist thing but we are far from saints ourselves.

I never said we were. If you inferred that, that's your issue.

[johnpr]

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

Yes, the Navy did have some horrible practices. The operative word is "did."

2003 is far from "did" that still counts as current, if you honestly believe that they stopped bad practices over night thats fine but they haven't.

all i was after finding out is where you got the whole we would be communist thing. its ok that its your opinion my statements where just to point out that the issue itself isn't communism, it's corruption. (communism by the way is an economic system related to production and money, not the control of speech, religion etc)

"Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humanity is free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions. In Marxism-Leninism, Socialism is the intermediate system between capitalism and communism, when the government is in the process of changing the means of ownership from privatism, to collective ownership. [4] [5]"
from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

so the point is there are many corrupt governments which use communism as an excuse to control everything.

[Shawn D.]

Originally Posted by johnpr

all i was after finding out is where you got the whole we would be communist thing. its ok that its your opinion my statements where just to point out that the issue itself isn't communism, it's corruption. (communism by the way is an economic system related to production and money, not the control of speech, religion etc)

"Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humanity is free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions. In Marxism-Leninism, Socialism is the intermediate system between capitalism and communism, when the government is in the process of changing the means of ownership from privatism, to collective ownership. [4] [5]"
from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Where I got it was my understanding of history. Not to seem condescending and/or patronizing, but as soon as I saw "so where did you get the 'we would be communist' thing? i have never heard that before," I was 99% certain you were a twenty-something or younger; checking out your introduction confirmed my hunch.

I already knew the academic definition of communism. In the real-world application, it has always been inseparable from totalitarian regimes that do control speech, religion, travel, association, etc. Can you show me where it has played out otherwise? Citing how things are in post-communist countries doesn't count, BTW.

Now, back to Gashole...

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by johnpr

so where did you get the "we would be communist" thing? i have never heard that before, and yes if we would have been communist it would be possible that we would have the internet today and free discussion, my friend from russia says she used it all the time before moving here, in fact that is how she met her current husband, and guess what? they are moving back to post communist russia.

The Internet, as we know it, came about after the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia and the Soviet Union are not the same thing. The Soviet Union was controlled by communists and they did not have freedom of information or speech.

[Duffman]

Just some facts as I see them:
Totalitarianism does not mean communism. Some of the worst states in our history have embraced capitalist ideals (Nazi Germany, Pinochet’s Chile and Saddam’s Iraq). In practical terms the best definition to communism would be a 1 party system of government with very strong ties to state ownership and socialistic ideals.

To my knowledge we have never seen a modern state that was free and democratic that worked on Marxist principals. There were a few examples that were headed in that direction until coups supported by foreign governments eliminated them. There are successful communities that operate on those principal though.

I seriously doubt we will ever see a pure socialist democracy in our lifetimes, the same could be said for a pure libertarian government, but that doesn’t mean that trends and ideas from each ideology cant be valuable or useful.

Traditionally totalitarianism governments have been horrible to their people. Yet we in the west do not have unrestricted free speech or freedoms either. I have friends that lived the majority of their lives in non-democracies (Arab nations) and they say that as long as the government is not bad, the majority of the people really don’t care who is running the country.

The USSR ultimately failed because it used a command economy that had massive corruption, not because they were a bunch of inbred hillbillies that couldn’t add 2+2 together.

[Shawn D.]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Totalitarianism does not mean communism. Some of the worst states in our history have embraced capitalist ideals (Nazi Germany, Pinochet’s Chile and Saddam’s Iraq).

What I said was that communist regimes have always been totalitarian, not that totalitarian regimes have always been communist. Perhaps I could have worded it better, though.

Nazi Germany did not embrace capitalist ideals. "Nazi" is short for "Nationalsozialismus," or "National Socialism." As described in the Wikipedia entry, "Among the key elements of Nazism were... collectivism... opposition to economic liberalism..."

Originally Posted by Duffman

The USSR ultimately failed because it used a command economy that had massive corruption, not because they were a bunch of inbred hillbillies that couldn’t add 2+2 together.

Well, I must admit I'm unfamiliar with the "inbred hillbilly" theory of the Soviet Union!