Good MPG Target for Mass Market (Eco Rant)

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Fingie

I honestly think we could just remove the car taxes, and tax fuels instead.

Had a tax on fuels be structured to support biofuels with a lower impact on food supplies, I would have to agree with you. And there's plenty of feedstock for those cleaner fuels, ranging from carcass fats that could be turned into biodiesel and other slaughtering leftovers more useful for biogas/biomethane and agricultural fertilizer, to leftovers from nearly any crop that are viable for ethanol or eventually both ethanol and biodiesel. Not to mention the option to keep using those vegetable leftovers to feed livestock and process their manure into biomethane and fertilizers.

[ME_Andy]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Green car reports says the Tesla Model X for example is rated at 92mpge, and the Nissan Leaf is 114mpge. Are people really going to drive well enough to hit either of those targets?

My wife is getting about 140 mpge in her Leaf with zero hypermiling. She might drive a little smarter than average, but mostly... EVs just thrive in city driving.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

I still don't understand those MPGe ratings.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

I still don't understand those MPGe ratings.

1 gallon of gasoline contains ~33.7kwh of energy, even if an ICE can usually only extract about 25-40% of that. Let's say an EV has a battery that can hold 33.7kwh exactly, and it can go 80 miles on a charge. That EV has 80 miles per gallon equivalent.

What isn't taken into account is cost - where I live, 33.7kwh of electricity costs about $6, while a gallon of gas only costs about $2.30. Since I can reliably get 70mpg tanks in my Insight, an EV would need to get 2.5x that, or 175MPGe to break even in cost per mile, not taking oil changes and other maintenance into account.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Xist

I feel like we should try to make the world a better place, but some popular figures take things too far: "Bill Nye `the science guy' says in a video interview released Thursday that he is open to the idea of jailing those who deviate from the climate change consensus." Bill Nye open to criminal charges, jail time for climate-change dissenters - Washington Times

Willful ignorance punished? I have no real issue with that if the ignorant persons oppinion is paid for and done on purpose to harm others

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Ecky

1 gallon of gasoline contains ~33.7kwh of energy,

What isn't taken into account is cost - where I live, 33.7kwh of electricity costs about $6, while a gallon of gas only costs about $2.30. Since I can reliably get 70mpg tanks in my Insight, an EV would need to get 2.5x that, or 175MPGe to break even in cost per mile, not taking oil changes and other maintenance into account.

33.7kwhr of energy drives my 4 passenger PHEV about 202+ miles
A gallon of gas moves my PHEV a max of 50 miles but usually closer to 40 miles.

Me thinks your metric ignores a rather simple truth regardless of your cost per gallon.

See my attached real world summer fe off my NAV screen, do the math and tell me I'm wrong

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

33.7kwhr of energy drives my 4 passenger PHEV about 202+ miles
A gallon of gas moves my PHEV a max of 50 miles but usually closer to 40 miles.

Me thinks your metric ignores a rather simple truth regardless of your cost per gallon.

See my attached real world summer fe off my NAV screen, do the math and tell me I'm wrong

I agree that an Insight isn't a fair comparison because it only seats two, but it's rare that I even have a passenger in that second seat. So, YMMV. What's most cost effective will also depend on where you live - in some places, electricity is nearly free during some parts of the day, so it's definitely not black and white. I'm sure we can both come up with a ton of scenarios where EVs or ICEs look better: E.g. If we can assume a Prius reliably gets 45mpg and can seat 4 comfortably, 5 in a pinch (not a stretch, I think), it would be roughly equivalent in cost per mile to a Leaf if you're paying the same in electricity and gas as I am.

Granted, I would much rather drive around town in an EV than with a manual transmission ICE, but I'm also one of many people who live in cities who has no place to charge an EV. For highway driving, an EV doesn't have the luxury of a fast refill like a gasoline vehicle has. You're also paying a lot more up-front for an equivalent vehicle.

Don't get me wrong, it's remarkable that we can even have this conversation. Electric vehicles have come a long way, and there's certainly a non-negligible (and growing) portion of the market they service very well already.

[Grant-53]

Any comparison should start with passenger-miles per unit of energy and consider average annual cost of operation. Because conditions vary there is no one best way to get from point to point. Electric vehicles can charge at an RV park or at home overnight and do well in urban traffic. They typically cost twice the price of a similar gas powered vehicle but are twice as efficient. A rural traveling nurse will want a Subaru AWD. Within a 25 mile radius of home I want a streamlined bicycle I can take on the bus or train.

[Grant-53]

Bill Nye is an enemy of the people.

[Hersbird]

If it was necessary to create some kind of carbon tax there should be no actual tax or credit. It should just simply be a limit on an individual's use of fossil fuel taken entirely on all aspects of their life. No trading, no special exemptions, you spend a week on a private jet flying around on vacation and you live in a cold home riding a bike the rest of the year. The fact is it is not the average Joe, living an average life who would be above the limit as an individual of any carbon use cap, but they would be the only ones actually targeted if anything like that was put into place.