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Old 01-26-2010, 07:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb HHO and Regenerative Braking

I am sure you are all sick to death of hearing about HHO and I have read at length the previous posts here but what I propose draws from the following discussions:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ions-4618.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ator-4705.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mmm-10862.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...esel-9374.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-hho-3798.html

All very interesting and similar debates discussed ALL OVER the web.

However I have not found one that discusses combining the two.

The complaints of HHO are due to the factors of energy conservation, (I will not go into it, read the above) but if one was to use wasted energy generated from slowing your vehicle (braking) to charge a separate battery and the separate battery ran the HHO generator, then I do not see why this wouldn't work.

This guy really brakes down the Energy terms of the process:
Enough already with water-4-gas, hydro-assist and PICC... - Topic Powered by Social Strata

He says:-
"In reality, what you end up with is needing to output around 3150 kJ to keep the cycle going, but you are only producing 475 kJ. This is why water-4-gas did not work"

But again I am proposing to get that input of 3150kJ from wasted braking energy - or even solar backup.

-So deep cycle battery is charged during braking, and ticks over with 2.4W solar charger (£12.99 Maplin) if needed.
-Deep cycle battery continuously runs the HHO generator which uses the large 3150kJ energy from braking, stored in battery and produces small energy HHO 475kJ, which can be used effectively in the engine (there doesn't seem to be any doubts about that).

Put these into power:
3150kJ =875 Watt-hours
475kJ = 132 Watt-hours

Your basic car battery has about 1200 Watt-hours on a full charge.
If something uses 1 Amp, your car battery can run it for 100 hours. Something running at 20 amps will run 100/20=5 hours

I understand from asking suppliers of the big HHO kits that they pull from 10-20 Amps at 12V depending on how much electrolyte you use and how much you turn up your PWM.

I have confused myself here a little, but with all of the above figures it seems that a deep cycle battery would at least be able to produce HHO continuously for over an hour from a full charge. Then add the regenerative braking topping it up.

I am sure you brake a little bit on an hours journey... don't you??

I would appreciate any thoughts...

H

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Old 01-26-2010, 08:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry_rc View Post
I am sure you are all sick to death of hearing about HHO and I have read at length the previous posts here but what I propose draws from the following discussions:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ions-4618.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ator-4705.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mmm-10862.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...esel-9374.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-hho-3798.html

All very interesting and similar debates discussed ALL OVER the web.

However I have not found one that discusses combining the two.

The complaints of HHO are due to the factors of energy conservation, (I will not go into it, read the above) but if one was to use wasted energy generated from slowing your vehicle (braking) to charge a separate battery and the separate battery ran the HHO generator, then I do not see why this wouldn't work.

This guy really brakes down the Energy terms of the process:
Enough already with water-4-gas, hydro-assist and PICC... - Topic Powered by Social Strata

He says:-
"In reality, what you end up with is needing to output around 3150 kJ to keep the cycle going, but you are only producing 475 kJ. This is why water-4-gas did not work"

But again I am proposing to get that input of 3150kJ from wasted braking energy - or even solar backup.

-So deep cycle battery is charged during braking, and ticks over with 2.4W solar charger (£12.99 Maplin) if needed.
-Deep cycle battery continuously runs the HHO generator which uses the large 3150kJ energy from braking, stored in battery and produces small energy HHO 475kJ, which can be used effectively in the engine (there doesn't seem to be any doubts about that).

Put these into power:
3150kJ =875 Watt-hours
475kJ = 132 Watt-hours

Your basic car battery has about 1200 Watt-hours on a full charge.
If something uses 1 Amp, your car battery can run it for 100 hours. Something running at 20 amps will run 100/20=5 hours

I understand from asking suppliers of the big HHO kits that they pull from 10-20 Amps at 12V depending on how much electrolyte you use and how much you turn up your PWM.

I have confused myself here a little, but with all of the above figures it seems that a deep cycle battery would at least be able to produce HHO continuously for over an hour from a full charge. Then add the regenerative braking topping it up.

I am sure you brake a little bit on an hours journey... don't you??

I would appreciate any thoughts...

H
I count how many times I hit the brakes while I drive, usually. Only count the times when I actually use them to slow down, not the times where I "ready" them.

Quite frankly, if I used braking energy to recharge my battery, I'd have a dead battery in no time. I just drove from Ithaca, NY to Troy, PA and only used my brakes about 26 times. 16 of those were to come to a complete stop at stop signs and while waiting for traffic to proceed through town. I don't slow down unless I absolutely have to, and when I do, I primarily use engine braking (Automatic trans) to do it.

I have a feeling you'll get pretty close to the same answer from many here, but it's a good idea for those of you who use them more often. I'm afraid that with the amount of energy I burn off in my brakes, I might as well just not bother.
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I do an awful lot of engine braking. This is what got me thinking how to make use of it. In the UK we don't have such long stretches of roads and we have many more bends than you guys.
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't brake for curves. I either take them at speed, or am already slowing down enough to take the curve without braking. Try it - you get really good at "reading" the road surface and anticipating the curves' depth and angle.

It's mostly because other drivers suck, and after a few years, you start to see wear patterns in the road where they dive into a curve because they're braking while turning - a big no no.
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Even on a small car, the brakes can absorb energy at a rate in the hundreds of horsepower. A generator for even a hundred HP, which might suffice for most situations, would still be rather heavy to carry around, as would be the system to store power at that rate. Regenerative braking systems are not always worth while even if you already have an electric traction motor. I just did an 80 mile round trip, and only touched the brakes at the ends.
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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if you could spin an alternator or two, you could hit the feild power with a switch for a "slowdown mode" it would present low drag until you turn the feild on ,but the friction losses from continually spinning them would probably be a wash, and i dont know how much power they would put out alot of them are 100 amp output on old v8's just a thought.
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It's an interesting idea and on the surface it has more merit than the regular ho ho ho systems.

I too fall into the trap of not thinking about others' driving conditions. As a semi-rural flatlander, it's hard to imagine city stop-n-go, mountainous areas, etc. I'm in an area with lots of stop-n-go and steep hills right now and it's much different than what I'm used to. I totally hate it but I'm on the brakes much more per mile. I still have the factory brakes on my '94 with over 100k but now I doubt that even I could have achieved that here in the urban hills.

Related to what Bob said, in a hilly area weight is paramount and if the needed equipment is heavy it is even less likely to pay back.

The other day I discovered I could coast engine off for miles going downhill, but the fe still sucked because I could only go uphill in the low gears.
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Bicycle Bob -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob View Post
Even on a small car, the brakes can absorb energy at a rate in the hundreds of horsepower. A generator for even a hundred HP, which might suffice for most situations, would still be rather heavy to carry around, as would be the system to store power at that rate. Regenerative braking systems are not always worth while even if you already have an electric traction motor. I just did an 80 mile round trip, and only touched the brakes at the ends.
Would this be a situation where ultracapacitors could be used to *temporarily* store the energy? It could be used in the HHO design or to supplement the alternator, but without(?) the weight penalty.

CarloSW2
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
Bicycle Bob -



Would this be a situation where ultracapacitors could be used to *temporarily* store the energy? It could be used in the HHO design or to supplement the alternator, but without(?) the weight penalty.

CarloSW2
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Christ -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Carbon Nanotubes, man.

Dr. Michio Kaku says so.
Yay! Michio Kaku Rocks!

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