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Old 04-16-2011, 03:56 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
*The vehicle is attacking the air mass in front of it and this onset flow is impinging upon the air captured within the pitot and connecting tubing to create the dynamic head.
* While it is true that the the onset flow creates the stagnation pressure at nose and windscreen,it is the pressure differential between the forward stagnation point,and the base pressure of the wake which creates the 'force' the vehicle must overcome.
* The bubble ( which is barely distinguishable over the windshield) can be thought of as a solid structure as far as the air is concerned.
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* With respect to the 1999 GM PNGV Precept,the 'features-drag' which included wipers,wheel covers,mirrors,door handles,and cut lines added a total 0.007 to the Cd.The wiper drag was zero.
As far as the air is concerned the bubble may be a solid structure, but that doesn't mean it's shaped optimally. Following your reasoning, windshield and hood angle doesn't matter at all, because the air will always form a bubble.

Like I was saying before, most people think of raindrops as being "teardrop" shaped but the air hitting them has no reason to shape them into nice teardrops.


http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/raindropshape.html

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Old 04-16-2011, 04:16 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
As far as the air is concerned the bubble may be a solid structure, but that doesn't mean it's shaped optimally. Following your reasoning, windshield and hood angle doesn't matter at all, because the air will always form a bubble.

Like I was saying before, most people think of raindrops as being "teardrop" shaped but the air hitting them has no reason to shape them into nice teardrops.


Are raindrops tear-shaped? USGS's Water Science for Schools site.
*In Hucho's parlance the bubble is fully 'optimized'.He says that once you've achieved attached flow that more 'softening' doesn't necessarily reduce the drag any further.
* If you looked at the FLOW-IMAGES Photo-Gallery 3 you see that there is no really discernible 'bubble' in front of the 1974 Rabbit.
* You also mentioned Lay.If you have his work you'll notice that Cd 0.12 was achieved with the 'Rabbit' windshield as well as the 'ideal' windshield.No difference.
* Your correct about the raindrop.It's a deformable body.I never use it as an example.
* The 2.5 L/D teardrop streamline body of revolution I base the 'Template' on has the lowest Cd for a form aero-modders might be able to use as a streamlining guide on their own vehicle.In that context the 'teardrop' has great value.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:49 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
By the way, airplane wings don't create lift with the Bernoulli effect. That's one of those persistent myths. It sounds good when you read it in a textbook and when you use the paper strip demonstration, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Google "bernoulli vs newton" or "bernoulli myth" and you'll find a lot of articles and discussions. Planes generate lift by angling the airfoil.

Edit: Here's a link. Two myths I learned in college: bathtub drains and airplane wings — The Endeavour
Hi Wink,

Another approach to getting a grip on what actually happens with air flow is to look at vacuum aspirators...

They take high pressure air and convert it to a vacuum due to the presence of high velocity air flow.

To answer your question on whether there is a higher than atmospheric pressure at the front of our cars, the answer from me would be, yes.

I think of the air as being a very loosely knitted soft foam. Or another analogy is a series of tiny balls that are all attached to each other by very soft springs.

If you move your car forward then the front of the car does compress the springs somewhat as it moves through the air. The faster the movement, the more this compression takes place.

Back to a simple test. If you can find an old water manometer, or for that matter an old Dwyer water manometer dial indicator, you could mount a forward facing tube out through the grill and measure this pressure as you drive.

Now here's the cool part...

If you could drive fast enough and you place another tube through the roof line of the car that faces straight up, it would measure.... a pressure reduction over atmospheric. This reduction would increase the faster you go.

And yes, you would see the same effect, except greater if you mounted the same two manometers on a model air plane and flew it. The manometer mounted on the top of the wing would be an indicator of the wing's lift.

The stagnation pressure is really measuring the force of the air at zero velocity. In otherwords, where the air hits the leading edge of the wing and there is no movement either over the wing or under this air velocity is essentially zero because it is stuck in position at the front of the wing and not moving relative to the aircraft.

Any movement of air that is accelerated either over or under the wing will create a pressure decrease or vacuum in the air. I can demonstrate this over and over in the lab. This is worth repeating. Any time the velocity of the air is increased, there is a general decrease in atmospheric pressure. This phenomena is used to make all manner of air flow calibration equipment.

Here's a strange fact:

PC computer hard drives use the Bernoulli Effect to great effect. How?

The head above the spinning platters must stay very close to the surface to read the digital information. Since the platter is spinning so quickly, it rides in a small pocket of air only microns from the platter surface, even if you pickup the PC which this is all happening. What controls this small air gap? Right, the high velocity air trapped between the platter surface and head. The head is literally *stuck* to the surface of the platter from the high level vacuum present.

Jim.

Last edited by 3-Wheeler; 04-16-2011 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:56 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 3-Wheeler View Post
Hi Wink,

Another approach to getting a grip on what actually happens with air flow is to look at vacuum aspirators...

They take high pressure air and convert it to a vacuum due to the presence of high velocity air flow.

To answer your question on whether there is a higher than atmospheric pressure at the front of our cars, the answer from me would be, yes.

I think of the air as being a very loosely knitted soft foam. Or another analogy is a series of tiny balls that are all attached to each other by very soft springs.

If you move your car forward then the front of the car does compress the springs somewhat as it moves through the air. The faster the movement, the more this compression takes place.

Back to a simple test. If you can find an old water manometer, or for that matter an old Dwyer water manometer dial indicator, you could mount a forward facing tube out through the grill and measure this pressure as you drive.

Now here's the cool part...

If you could drive fast enough and you place another tube through the roof line of the car that faces straight up, it would measure.... a pressure reduction over atmospheric. This reduction would increase the faster you go.

And yes, you would see the same effect, except greater if you mounted the same two manometers on a model air plane and flew it. The manometer mounted on the top of the wing would be an indicator of the wing's lift.

The stagnation pressure is really measuring the force of the air at zero velocity. In otherwords, where the air hits the leading edge of the wing and there is no movement either over the wing or under this air velocity is essentially zero because it is stuck in position at the front of the wing and not moving relative to the aircraft.

Any movement of air that is accelerated either over or under the wing will create a pressure decrease or vacuum in the air. I can demonstrate this over and over in the lab. This is worth repeating. Any time the velocity of the air is increased, there is a general decrease in atmospheric pressure. This phenomena is used to make all manner of air flow calibration equipment.

Here's a strange fact:

PC computer hard drives use the Bernoulli Effect to great effect. How?

The head above the spinning platters must stay very close to the surface to read the digital information. Since the platter is spinning so quickly, it rides in a small pocket of air only microns from the platter surface, even if you pickup the PC which this is all happening. What controls this small air gap? Right, the high velocity air trapped between the platter surface and head. The head is literally *stuck* to the surface of the platter from the high level vacuum present.

Jim.
I understand the Bernoulli effect, but I'm talking about a frontal surface of a car, not the roof. That's what I'm trying to explain, that the air flowing along the front side of the car and also the stagnant bubble are applying rearward force to the car.
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Old 04-23-2011, 01:26 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
I understand the Bernoulli effect, but I'm talking about a frontal surface of a car, not the roof. That's what I'm trying to explain, that the air flowing along the front side of the car and also the stagnant bubble are applying rearward force to the car.
I apologize for butting in.
*In road vehicle aerodynamics the lion's share of a vehicles aerodynamic drag,by definition,is profile drag, composed of surface drag and pressure drag.
*Nothing can be done about surface drag so we concentrate on pressure drag which is ruled by separated flow.
*Air does not independently act as a force against the front part of a vehicle.
*The drag force is primarily the pressure differential between the forward stagnation point and the base pressure of the wake.The delta-P.
*Hucho gives A.Riedler credit for the basis of rational analysis of motor vehicle aerodynamic drag from his studies in 1911,based on the non-Newtoniam physics of Prandtl and Eiffel.
*Hucho writes in his Chapter-1 that it was a very slow process getting away from Newton's 'Impact Theory.'
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*If you will direct a high-pressure water jet into a basin of water you will notice that as the jet nears the bottom of the basin,that the jet will 'stick' to the bottom,rather than be rocketed away by the 'force.'This is a backyard demonstration of Bernoulli's Theorem which is an integral part of Impulse-Momentum fluid dynamics.

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