How to build a muscle car for better fuel economy?

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Ecky

The Wardenclyffe towers needed huge engines turning generators to make that electricity too.

This account is one I have never heard of. The goal of the tower was to harness the electrical field of Earth, hence, it had no moving parts. Even the images of what this tower looked like don't show any generator to produce the electricity. We only have rumors about why it was defunded, but when you think about it, no one can profit from a free service, right?

Originally Posted by Ecky

There are two kinds of hybrids that work:

1) Non plug-in hybrids, like the Prius and Insight. These have systems that basically only capture energy lost when you slow down, and use it to accelerate you again. With this in place, a gen4 Prius can get more than 50mpg city, whereas an equivalent car without the system would probably only get about 30mpg city. Don't underestimate how much energy is needed to accelerate the entire mass of your car.

These cars have lithium batteries which could fit inside a lunchbox, because they really only need to store enough energy for a couple of "launches", usually between 0.8kwh and 1.5kwh.

2) Plug-in hybrids, which have large packs designed to continuously provide assist (or even entirely electric propulsion) for many miles and hours at a time. Depending on how large your portion of electricity you use, your gas mileage can actually be infinite - if you never start the gas engine. Battery packs for these vary; the Chevy Volt's is about 19kwh and the size of a large suitcase. It's capable of pushing the car down the highway at highway speeds entirely on its own for over 50 miles. The Prius Prime has a ~9kwh battery capable of about 25 miles. Both of these cars also capture energy when you slow down, but their programming is designed so that they're assisting basically all the time, and you really only need to start the gas engine if you want to drive past what the battery's range is.

I am not interested in using electricity to solely move the vehicle. I should be more clear than I was, when I say using electric assist, "all the time", I mean using it for gasoline engine conditions that benefit from the added torque of the electric motor such as vacuum loss, AWD mud/snow driving, and stop-and-go driving. My interest was peaked by the notion of providing the low end torque that my LT1 needs by using electrical assist. Then I got more excited thinking about how to utilize this electrical assist from AWD ability in the snow to performance such as that in the Mclaren P1 Hybrid. I really need to look into how the Mclaren system operates and how best to apply the philosophy to my own car.

I see the benefits of stop-and-go electric assist, this is undeniable in my mind. However, there are other areas where electric assist can help a gasoline motor, both for AWD ability in the mud/snow, to performance fun! As I said, I am willing to plug in my car if the battery needs the additional charge, and this also paves the way for an engine block heater if it is possible to use a rather large yet expensive lithium battery to enable the block heater's use.

[Ecky]

Yeah I understand you don't want to move the vehicle solely with electricity, I'd just like to throw out there that if the motor you're using is not bolted to the engine's crank, you can, in theory, move your car with it without needing the engine running. Like, let's say for instance you just need to move it up some ramps, you won't need to bother starting your car, you can just drag it up using the motors. Or, let's say you're at a drive-through, you can creep up to the window without the engine running. Saves gas, saves engine wear.

Anyway, the next step would be to decide just how much battery you want, and just how much power you want from the motors. Be aware that if you wanted to produce 200HP from the motors, it would mean your batteries would need to be able to safely produce 150,000 watts (750 * 200). If you only wanted 20HP, you only need batteries capable of safely producing 15,000 watts. Different batteries have different rates they can be safely charged or discharged, so you need to find the right battery for your application.

There are two major types of lithium batteries:

Lithium Ion batteries have very high energy density - which is to say, they weigh very little and are very small for the amount of power they hold. They are the 18650 cells you see used in flashlights / vapes and many other high powered devices. Tesla uses Lithium ion for their cars. Lithium ion is also cheaper than some other technologies. Its disadvantage is that the lifespan of these cells isn't quite as long as some other chemistries. I'm going to make up some numbers, you might need a new pack in, say, 15 years instead of 25 years if you used something else. Lithium ion can also be dangerous if mis-handled. If you short them out, they can catch on fire.

Lithium iron phosphate is the technology Nissan uses in their Leaf EV. These cells are heavier and bulkier than lithium ion, and tend to be in square pouches. They're safer than lithium ion, but more expensive. They will last more years before needing replacement - though honestly, either will probably last you plenty long, and battery prices are dropping fast.

Many older EVs used lead-acid batteries (like your car's starter battery) or Nickel-metal-hydride (like my Insight). These are extremely heavy for the amount of power they hold, but can be cheaper. With lithium coming down in price so much though, there's almost no point. The only case I can see for them is that lithium batteries don't perform as well in the cold as lead acid or NiMH.

The easiest way might be to find someone who is selling a Nissan Leaf battery pack, and ask if you can buy just 1/10 of it. Or, maybe you can find a pack from another hybrid like a Prius, Insight, Accord, Camry, C-Max, Fusion, etc etc. Or, maybe part of a pack from a wrecked Chevy Volt.

I'm not sure why you'd want to run a block heater from your battery if you're already bothering to plug the battery in (which is unnecessary, IMO), because you can just plug the block heater in too?

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Yeah I understand you don't want to move the vehicle solely with electricity, I'd just like to throw out there that if the motor you're using is not bolted to the engine's crank, you can, in theory, move your car with it without needing the engine running. Like, let's say for instance you just need to move it up some ramps, you won't need to bother starting your car, you can just drag it up using the motors. Or, let's say you're at a drive-through, you can creep up to the window without the engine running. Saves gas, saves engine wear.

This part I am going to need to take the time to research and soul-search as to how I want the hybrid system to operate and what kind of battery power I will require. I may have to settle with the hybrid system only kicking on for stop-and-go conditions as well as getting the car moving from a dead stop in snow. The biggest problem with my Trans Am is going from a dead stop in snow, the rear wheels have no issues propelling me so long as I maintain momentum but once I am stopped, the rear wheels can't muster up the traction to get me going again which is why hub motors in the front wheels would be ideal.

As far as highway cruising in lower gear, I am back to finding the perfect blend for my gasoline engine, the right camshaft that provides the low end grunt I need yet does not result in too much fuel consumption. I have had suggestions to put on a higher numerical value gear ratio but that will keep me too high in RPM and reduce my highway mileage. I have also been given the suggestions to use a stroker with my stock camshaft, but I am not sold that more displacement will not result in more fuel consumption even when I baby the car with a feather foot for fuel economy. They are probably right but I need more to go on in order to be convinced.

Afterthought:
If I were to ultimately decide upon a stroker, I then need to figure out the camshaft to balance out all of this power from the stroker kit. Plus, I still would be using a TPI intake on my motor, so talk about adding more fun to the fun!

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'm not sure why you'd want to run a block heater from your battery if you're already bothering to plug the battery in (which is unnecessary, IMO), because you can just plug the block heater in too?

Well, for frigid winter driving conditions, it would significantly reduce engine wear upon start-up and help the car warm up faster. My logic for using the lithium battery pack to feed the block heater would be for at work. I can't possibly run a plug a block away to charge up my car. So, I am hoping that one of the larger lithium battery packs would be okay for a block heater running for 8 or 10 hours while I am at work. In order to charge up the battery while driving, I will have to explore my options with the altermotor, but when I get home, I can run an extension cord and charge up my car, no big deal!

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Yeah I understand you don't want to move the vehicle solely with electricity, I'd just like to throw out there that if the motor you're using is not bolted to the engine's crank, you can, in theory, move your car with it without needing the engine running. Like, let's say for instance you just need to move it up some ramps, you won't need to bother starting your car, you can just drag it up using the motors. Or, let's say you're at a drive-through, you can creep up to the window without the engine running. Saves gas, saves engine wear.

Yeah, I see your point. In order to do this, I would need an inline transmission motor which XLhybrids offers. There is no way to operate my front wheels if I go this route, and it doesn't offer me AWD when I need it for snow.

Well, this next idea would be expensive on top of the hub motor idea, but can I get away with using both?!

Use the inline transmission motor for stop-and-go while using the hub motors for AWD? It would need custom programing since I don't need to use both for these separate conditions...

Scratch that:
I should be able to have the hub motors come on to move the car even with the engine off, transmission in neutral, and the power accessories turned on with my starter. There we go. Christ, the money to blow away like I am a money tree!

[Ecky]

If you get the right hub motors, they should be able to operate at any speed. It's just a matter of getting the right windings and voltage. Hub motors add a lot of unspring weight to the wheels, but as you say, you get AWD which has advantages. You can creep around with your engine in neutral or off, and still drop the engine into neutral and regen brake to a stop with the hub motors, saving your brake pads and filling up the hybrid battery.

Even without an altermotor, you can still delete your alternator if you use hub motors. Here's how it works:

Normally, when your 12v system is loaded, your alternator applies some drag to your engine (eats a little gas mileage) to top the 12v battery up, at around 60% efficiency. With a hub motor hybrid, when the 12v gets a little low, a DC-DC converter can just pull a little bit out of the big hybrid battery, which is either filled at home or from regenerative braking. That's an instant +5-15% fuel economy from deleting the alternator.

You'll still need to keep your starter, unless you want to use the hub motors to bump start your engine sometimes, but it would be nice having both options. My car does - I can start it with either the 12v starter or the big hybrid motor.

EDIT: And you're right, if you're rebuilding the engine, it's still beneficial to get a cam which has better low-RPM characteristics.

[Ecky]

Some reflections:

A bolt-on altermotor system will be cheaper than something custom or requiring fabrication. I don't think you started the thread wanting more power and AWD, just more economy in a car you plan to drive every day, so the bar for what you're expecting to get out of it (and the costs) has moved. I'm still going to propose that simply bolting a small motor on in place of your alternator and putting a small battery in the trunk will give you more power and better fuel economy, and won't require a shop to do a lot of expensive custom work.

You can get basically the same economy out of just changing your driving habits. funkhoss has proven that using an engine kill switch frequently, being very gentle on the throttle and driving conservatively can deliver phenomenal economy, even in a car with a big motor like yours, but in my opinion hybridizing is having your cake and eating it to. I think if you keep it simple it's a very realistic goal, and would caution you that while min/maxing is interesting, you may find that in practice it becomes too expensive or complicated to be reasonable. Having a university do custom hub motors is not going to be cheap.

What I'll advise really depends on how much money you want to spend, and what you're hoping to achieve.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'm still going to propose that simply bolting a small motor on in place of your alternator and putting a small battery in the trunk will give you more power and better fuel economy, and won't require a shop to do a lot of expensive custom work.

I'll gonna have to agree on that, plus maybe if you feel comfortable as long as you get more familiarized with hybrid systems it's possible to perform other upgrades such as adding e-AWD.

[Phoenix'97]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Some reflections:

A bolt-on altermotor system will be cheaper than something custom or requiring fabrication. I don't think you started the thread wanting more power and AWD, just more economy in a car you plan to drive every day, so the bar for what you're expecting to get out of it (and the costs) has moved.

I'm still going to propose that simply bolting a small motor on in place of your alternator and putting a small battery in the trunk will give you more power and better fuel economy, and won't require a shop to do a lot of expensive custom work.

Just as I have learned much from inquiring in other car forums about how to improve my LT1 with my notion of "performance", squeezing out more torque down low and in the mid-range with the least amount of fuel consumption, I have learned a great deal about hybrid technology and electric motors in this forum. I still have a lot more to learn but the way I operate is I ask about it and take my time learning the options I have until I narrow down the perfect build set-up per my criteria. If my car is going to be equipped with a larger version of the lithium battery, I might as well use this battery for start-up and running the block heater while deleting the alternator. I just have to figure out how to get an altermotor set up to work within the confines of my engine compartment.

Originally Posted by Ecky

You can get basically the same economy out of just changing your driving habits. funkhoss has proven that using an engine kill switch frequently, being very gentle on the throttle and driving conservatively can deliver phenomenal economy, even in a car with a big motor like yours, but in my opinion hybridizing is having your cake and eating it to. I think if you keep it simple it's a very realistic goal, and would caution you that while min/maxing is interesting, you may find that in practice it becomes too expensive or complicated to be reasonable. Having a university do custom hub motors is not going to be cheap.

What I'll advise really depends on how much money you want to spend, and what you're hoping to achieve.

I like to keep my RPMs down low and I quick shift my 6-speed to remain at an idle that doesn't lug the motor. I already drive conservatively but my engine does need to be refurbished because something is not quite right with it. I assume it has a bad tune and I also noticed a possible mechanical problem with the heads, oil leakage out of one of my exhaust ports. Hey, I need to do it anyways so why not look into what other options I have to squeeze out fuel economy and bring my car up with the times. I care about fuel economy and emissions just as much as anyone else, but I refuse to give up my V8, so there has to be a happy compromise with my expectations and what is possible.

Originally Posted by Ecky

If you get the right hub motors, they should be able to operate at any speed. It's just a matter of getting the right windings and voltage. Hub motors add a lot of unspring weight to the wheels, but as you say, you get AWD which has advantages. You can creep around with your engine in neutral or off, and still drop the engine into neutral and regen brake to a stop with the hub motors, saving your brake pads and filling up the hybrid battery.

Well, my car needs weight added to the rear end to compensate for weight up front during the winter time, so hopefully the weight from a larger size lithium battery can help offset the additional weight from the hub motors up front.

I don't want to get too excited about being able to run hub motors at all speeds, again I run into the battery drainage problem, but making use of the DFCO condition, or when I cruise in neutral to slow down, to recharge the battery, even at highway speeds to slow down and exit, would be pretty useful. Then, making use of an altermotor to fill in between usage. Either this or using the standard 45 mph limit and using my gasoline engine for highway travel only should give me a healthy balance of recharging and practical hybrid performance. I will still need to recharge at home but I accept it for the benefits this combined system will give me.

[freebeard]

I am trying to figure out how to give my gasoline engine the constant electric assist that I would like for it to have, beyond the energy neutral task of stopping and then using the saved energy to move the car at the same momentum that it had prior to stopping.

Hybrids are a stop-gap between ICE and pure electric, and may not be optimal, like mixing gas and ethanol. The proper use is as an averaging function.

An electric assist that functions a highway cruise speeds would be plasma actuators. It's a design problem nobody has cracked yet.

Hub motors are problematic. This shows up in a search for '4wd f-body' but I won't touch Facespook with someonelse's 10ft pole. If you have no reluctance, there might be something there:

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F-Body Owners! 3.2K likes. Join THIS Group IF... You love burning ricers, if you hate not being able to get around in the snow, and hate never having...
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If you can get a front axle in there, then the Toyota/Lexus drivetrain is an option. It weighs 98lb and has 68hp:

I thought more overlap was bad for fuel economy? Too much overlap and the car idles so choppy that I couldn't tolerate the daily drive!

That's the problem anti-reversion fixes. Those sleeves about 6" from the exhaust port are them.

edit:typo (98lb)

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Phoenix'97

I just have to figure out how to get an altermotor set up to work within the confines of my engine compartment.

BAS-Hybrid setup was developed exactly to be an easy fitment into already-existing platforms, just like a regular alternator.