How much energy does it take to produce a gallon of gasoline?

[roflwaffle]

I think most SUVs are normal (high) highway speeds, even w/ big engines, tend to be operating the engine ina good BSFC region because their drag coefficient is so damn high, but I could be wrong. Naturally it's the opposite for city.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

...but I could be wrong.

Yeah, so could I. That's the fun part of arguing without actual data :-)

[NeilBlanchard]

So, let me get this straight -- solar heat is much cheaper than natural gas, and they are using solar energy to extract really low quality oil?

Where Solar Power Meets the Oil Field - Technology Review

(click on image for link)

What an oxymoronic way to use solar power!

According to the MIT article, that on oil extraction site uses ~100,000,000 BTU's per hour to extract low quality, sticky oil. Then, this difficult stuff has to be refined, and probably will not yield very much gasoline or diesel.

[NeilBlanchard]

It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles, than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles. A gas car at the US fleet average of 21mpg will consume approximately five gallons of gasoline which took 40kwh (5 times 8)of electricity to make, to drive 100 miles. An electric car will use approximately 30 kwh of electricity (3.3 miles per kwh) to drive the same 100 miles.

Electric Mini: It takes a lot of coal to make gasoline

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by fidalgoman

I find it telling that it's OK to trash the planet if you're an underdeveloped economy but not if you're a mature one. Then the developed economies can purchase those same credits. Also the same people who opposed nuclear power in the past now embrace it if it's their side doing it. You can't let your cows piss in the stream but it's OK to dump millions of gallons of effluent into the bay and rivers every day. Way too subjective and self serving for my taste.

C'mon, be a good sport and don't buck the New World Order. This is all about "leveling the playing field" (read: reallocation of resources and redistribution of wealth - by political world leaders currently in power.)

The Chinese will be driving cars (in ever far greater numbers) and unemployed Americans will be walking and riding bicycles more (bicycles imported from China, perhaps?) because that will be all they can afford.

Or, as one prominent politician said, not long ago: "You can come along for the ride, but you have to sit in the back..."

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Electric Mini: It takes a lot of coal to make gasoline

Liquid fuels still have the best balance of convenience vs efficiency - you can drive a Petrol BINI from London to Edinburgh in a few hours with instant refueling but the electric one took a few days and had to bend the rules to make it at all.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Electric Mini: It takes a lot of coal to make gasoline

From the blog:

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Drum roll…….

It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles, than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles. A gas car at the US fleet average of 21mpg will consume approximately five gallons of gasoline which took 40kwh (5 times 8)of electricity to make, to drive 100 miles. An electric car will use approximately 30 kwh of electricity (3.3 miles per kwh) to drive the same 100 miles.

Although this argument makes a seemingly stunning point, I'm not so sure his comparison is valid here. He calculates the amount of electricity needed to make a gallon of gas, transport it to the station, and used by the station, but then he seems to be comparing it to the amount of electricity used only by the car. To be fair, I think his electric car figure should include the amount of electricity used to make the electricity (surely the powerplant uses power), transport it to the car (transmission losses), and used up by the station (charger). IOW, how many kwh are actually in a kwh used by the electric car?

[Ladogaboy]

I don't know if this has already been posted: http://www.stanford.edu/group/greend...slaReading.pdf

Even in this (obviously biased, imo) study, the most efficient production EV is roughly double the efficiency of the most efficient ICE cars (well-to-wheel). Considering the Tesla (according to the numbers on their website) should have an mpge of roughly 184. That makes it nearly 84% more efficient than the Nissan Leaf.

So 100% more efficient than a 50 mpg ICE car, and 84% more efficient than the Nissan Leaf. That means, when you actually compare the efficiency of one of the few affordable electric cars to the more efficient ICE cars in "well-to-wheel" efficiency, the difference is not great. Probably less than the difference that could be gained by improving driving habits or having the worst offenders (SUVs, trucks, etc.) replaced by higher efficiency cars when possible.

Suffice to say this is an interesting topic. I am just upset by the fact that so many of the parties involved in doing research are biased or trying to make a point. Unfortunately, the vast majority fall into the category of end-user, so their first concern is for themselves. If they see a personal improvement in economy/efficiency, they couldn't care less about the greater impact.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

I don't know if this has already been posted: http://www.stanford.edu/group/greend...slaReading.pdf

Even in this (obviously biased, imo) study, ...

Yes, they pick the average refinery efficiency, then compare it to the most efficient powerplant.

But if we use their well-to-wall efficiency number (52.5%) and refigure the Mini Blog results we get:

30 kwh/0.525 = 57.14 kwh to go 100 miles.

And if we use, say, a Toyota Prius (50 mpg) for comparison instead of the fleet average (I'm pretty sure his electric car can't do all of the things an entire auto maker's fleet can do. In fact, I would be surprised if it could do the same things a Prius can in terms of load capacity, passenger capacity, range, etc.), we get:

100 miles/50 mpg = 2 gallons.

2 gallons X 8 kwh/gal = 16 kwh to go 100 miles.

So the ratio in fact is 57.14/16 = 3.57.

The electric car uses 3.57 times as much electricity to go 100 miles as a Toyota Prius.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

I am just upset by the fact that so many of the parties involved in doing research are biased or trying to make a point.

Ditto ... but not just the research ... if anything the research itself ( not the reporters coverage of it ) ... at least the research itself often times is at least specific in outlining the scope and source of their claims.

While others ( reporters and others ) ... too often try to apply specific research results out of context , out of scope ... to their own bias.

If anything I prefer the researchers ... at least they give their sources ... and list the limits of the scope and context of their basis and conclusions.

From my perspective the issue depends on the specifics of the comparison ... there is no always A or always B ... on either side.

BEVs have their pros and cons ... ICEs have their pros and cons ... Neither side should ignore or try to talk around their cons or the others pros... use the right tool for the right job.

Or said another way ... Don't get defensive about your screwdriver when someone tells you about the benefits of a hammer... yes, even if you can pound in nails with your screw driver.