Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-12-2011, 02:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
The PRC.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Elsewhere.
Posts: 5,304
Thanks: 285
Thanked 536 Times in 384 Posts
The new car issue. Imagine you run a car company. Your aim is to, well, make as much money as possible. To do that you have to

a) sell as many cars as possible
b) make as much profit on each car as possible.

To do a) you need to make sure your cars appeal to as many people as you can. So you make loads of options and variations within reason for your target markets. You also make your brand a desirable one.

To do b) you sell as many high end vehicles as you can.

Worked example - In the US BMW sell 325s as the base model, because it is a premium market and they make loads of money on every model sold. That is b) in action. In Europe the market is more about numbers, so they sell 316/318s not sold in the US. It costs BMW no more to make a 316 than it does to make a 325 but they sell it in large numbers - BMW sell more 3-series than Ford sell Mondeos. Thats a) in action.

An extreme example of b) in action is Porsche. Thats how they have the cash to think about buying VAG. Its also how Lotus never managed to be a 'British Porsche' although they think they are - they sell cars too cheaply - e.g. the Elise.

The problem with selling a car with mods aimed at eco-driving is that the idea is based on economy - and buyers in that market do not want to spend either on new cars or for cars with added features they don't think they need.

Take an average ecomodder for example - yourself even. You don't own a new car so Renault / BMW / SAAB have made little or no money from you. Secondly you will probably keep those cars for longer, so again apart from parts they make no money from you - you traitor

There are some real world examples. Take VW - they used to sell the Beetle in the US on the basis that it was reliable, long lasting but also economical. SAAB also sold solid, efficient and lightweight vehicles to discerning clients all over the world. In the Early 1970s when the oil price crunch hit, both of them should have been at an advantage yet at the same time both of them realised that to make a profit they needed to move upmarket. For SAAB it was the 99 and later the 900 models (away from the old 2-strokes), for VW it was the Golf/Rabbit and later the Passat and Audi models - away from the air-coolled flat-4. Part of this move was also labour costs - West Germany and Sweden are not cheap labour locations.

So as the head of a car company, can you really sell these things and expect to remain in position with shareholders baying for profits ?

There are examples of makers going for the low end though - my avatar's masterpiece - the original Mini - was aimed at sweeping the microcars caused by Suez "back into the sea". The Citroen 2CV is a makers' response to their home market issues of low income and bad roads. The current Citroen C1 / 107 / Aygo is an example of selling a mainstream maker's car to a market normally dominated by the products of cheap makers like those from Indonesia, Taiwan etc.

As for pickups and trucks (F-150s) being sold in the US as the no.1 vehicle, wasn't this partly because the US offered a tax break to people owning one as a work vehicle ? My boss in the UK has just replaced his Range Rover supercharged with a "crew cab" Toyota for a similar tax break.

I love minimal motoring though. Original Mini, 2CV, Renault 4, Citroen C1, original Ford Ka - all superb in my book.

__________________
[I]So long and thanks for all the fish.[/I]
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 02-12-2011, 02:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,556 Times in 2,218 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
It's this kind of thinking that persuades me that the thread title is the problem: we can't change the automakers' minds because they don't HAVE minds.
They do- at least, Mr. Honda did. But they pursue maximum profit first and foremost. Since the Market decided that maximum profit for the mfgs would be found in the big rigs, that's what gets built, and that's why I place more of the blame on the consumer base than the mfgs.

That said, there are several areas I dearly wish the Mfgs- and the motoring press too- would be more proactive on. I'd think they are in a good position to educate motorists about the kinds of things we preach here, and they kinda-sorta weakly do, but I don't understand why they aren't more visible with their efforts.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 02:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,556 Times in 2,218 Posts
Quote:
As for pickups and trucks (F-150s) being sold in the US as the no.1 vehicle, wasn't this partly because the US offered a tax break to people owning one as a work vehicle ?
Yes but F150 has been #1 prior to, during, and after those tax incentives.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 04:35 PM   #24 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,434

The Mistress - '88 Bmw 320i Touring SE
Team m8
Last 3: 27.17 mpg (US)

Germany Beadle - '91 Mercedes 300td (estate, N/A)
90 day: 24.63 mpg (US)

The Bloodylingo - '05 Citroen Berlingo Multispace Desire
90 day: 39.77 mpg (US)

Shanner Scaab - '03 Saab 9-5 estate Vector
90 day: 26.19 mpg (US)

Clio 182 - '05 Renault Clio RS 182 182
90 day: 31.73 mpg (US)
Thanks: 90
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
i'm really enjoying this thread

Arragonis, i'm with you on the 'initial buyer' point-essentially it needs to be the original orderer that makes the eco request

Funnily enough my burd's mk 1 golf gti has a 'shift light' built in, from the factory!

Also, i've done 7.5k in 13 days in a ford ka round europe-a grand car

regarding the post re 'average joe comment-i'm sure 'passive improvements' like aero, grille blocks, start stop etc will yield a benefit to all.

Personally i see there as being a need for a 'stepping stone' stage towards the general public and fuel economisation. The behavioural change is effective but difficult to impliment, whereas mods over a whole trim level spectrum in a car IS cost effective, assuming every vehicle recieves it-this essentially ties in with the points re profit arragonis made.

Frank, funnily enough, there was an explosion of pickups in the UK due to company car tax legislation..so lots of estate agents and lawyers in mitsu warriors-despite never carrying a load of soil, or driving off road.not to mention the 20'' wheels and elastic band tyres being useless in the snow

So how do we get the 'initial purchaser'(which could be either an individual or a company car pool) to specify economy alongside performance and prestige??
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 06:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,556 Times in 2,218 Posts
High fuel prices. That's it. End of story.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 10:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
The new car issue. Imagine you run a car company. Your aim is to, well, make as much money as possible. To do that you have to

a) sell as many cars as possible
b) make as much profit on each car as possible.

To do a) you need to make sure your cars appeal to as many people as you can. So you make loads of options and variations within reason for your target markets. You also make your brand a desirable one.
The problem with this, though, is that when you design a car to appeal to as many people as possible, you're ensuring that

1) It'll be almost exactly like the cars your competitors built to try to appeal to as many people as possible, so all of you are going head-to-head for that part of the market.

2) There is a significant part of the market to whom your car doesn't appeal at all.

So if you're an intelligent automaker, you might deliberately build cars that don't try to appeal to the mass market, but which have niche markets all to themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2011, 06:07 AM   #27 (permalink)
The PRC.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Elsewhere.
Posts: 5,304
Thanks: 285
Thanked 536 Times in 384 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
Yes but F150 has been #1 prior to, during, and after those tax incentives.
I can't be the only one rolling my eyes at Ford suing Ferrari for using the F-150 moniker for its new F1 race car ? Apparently a prestige F1 racing car may harm the reputation of the Ford Truck ?

Ford's legal team considering their options yesterday...



EDIT - Does anyone in the F-150 target market (its North American only) watch F1 ?
__________________
[I]So long and thanks for all the fish.[/I]
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2011, 01:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Ford's legal team considering their options yesterday...
That's an insult! To the Muppets, of course :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2011, 01:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
dude...wait...what?
 
Odin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 161

Diesel Rx-7 - '82 Mazda Rx-7 GSL

merc 300d - '82 Mercedes-benz 300d dt

b2200 diesel - '84 Mazda b2200 D
Thanks: 6
Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post

EDIT - Does anyone in the F-150 target market (its North American only) watch F1 ?
yes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2011, 02:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
The PRC.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Elsewhere.
Posts: 5,304
Thanks: 285
Thanked 536 Times in 384 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
The problem with this, though, is that when you design a car to appeal to as many people as possible, you're ensuring that

1) It'll be almost exactly like the cars your competitors built to try to appeal to as many people as possible, so all of you are going head-to-head for that part of the market.

2) There is a significant part of the market to whom your car doesn't appeal at all.

So if you're an intelligent automaker, you might deliberately build cars that don't try to appeal to the mass market, but which have niche markets all to themselves.
But if you do that, and the wind changes (e.g. fuel prices fall, maybe temporarily for example) then you get stuck with eco inventory whilst everyone is off buying SUVs again.

__________________
[I]So long and thanks for all the fish.[/I]
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com