how to tackle the 'new car' issue? How can we change manufacturers minds?

[320touring]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

According to something random I came across a while ago it takes just 18hp to push a Ford Sierra along at 70mph. It takes many times that much to accelerate or climb hills, and nothing at all to descend. So for a mid-sized car (say Ford Mundano in the UK / Ford Fusion in the states) I think the changes could be :

1. Lower weight for composite panels, lighter seats etc etc.
2. Smaller engine - TSI style 1.4 Turbo, 120-170hp.
3. 6 Speed gearbox with loooong 6th.
4. Free-wheel, like old Rovers and SAABs used to have for built in coasting ability.

Take the three states a car typically runs in.

Flat cruise - engine runs like a 1.4 NA with long gearing.
Accelerate / Climb - turbo adds torque required temporarily.
Decelerate / Descend - free wheel allows engine to drop to idle.

For the last one if the box is auto or semi auto then maybe the box could slip into a long gear to go into DFCO mode depending on the rate of deceleration.

None of this is expensive and all of it exists / could be made easily.

Someone could even do it as a project here.

* What is the cost of a turbo vs Hybrid stuff in terms of weight and money ?
* What is the power / torque output of a 1.4 petrol at idle ?

This sounds a good idea, but how complex would the controlling of it be?

Jamesqf- thats a positive sign

[PaleMelanesian]

Many automatic cars already have "hill logic" built in. This is just another version of that, only this time it's a smart one.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by 320touring

This sounds a good idea, but how complex would the controlling of it be?

For a manual it will take all the computing power that can be fitted between the steering wheel and the front seat. In some cases not much I grant you.

For an auto or semi-auto it may be trickier but not impossible I would have thought. We can detect if the car is slowing, we can detect if it is going downhill (although long, shallow descents may be harder). We can also time how long. So after say 3 seconds of decelerating, 0 throttle and speed >35-45 (for example), slip into 6th, then 5th etc.

Making it non-intrusive and smooth may be harder.

When I was being taught to drive I was told about going up and down through the gears. Quite often now unless going for overrun DFCO I don't go down the gears as I used to - brakes are cheaper than clutches, and with an effective synchro on each gear it takes no time at all to slip into gear to set off again.

EDIT - this teaching of going down the gears was in the days of SU carbs, so no DFCO.

[NHRABill]

Reading through this thread you see what every auto manufacturer wishes they could do but simply cannot.

In Europe you have a whole different set of needs than you do in North America. It really is apples and oranges and cannot compare them in the same terms. Why? Emissions / Safety / and use

Lets start with diesel emissions... They pass in Europe but are considered too foul for NA (North America) Its pretty sad when the Mercedes-Benz ML350 Bluetec 4matic 6 cyl, 3.0 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel gets worse mileage than a Chevy Corvette. Diesel is finally starting to cleanup its act here but it still is far from being emission friendly. Smaller engines are not always better not when people want 1 vehicle instead of 3. I live in the state with the highest Auto insurance rates in the country for many years and $3,000 a year to insure your older Used car is not fun by any means. That is for a married couple who have not had any tickets or accidents in a couple decades of driving. Add a premium if you purchase a new car it can be mid $4k range with 3 cars with all of the safety discounts.

Safety is a big reason to purchase new and they have leaped ahead in this department more so than any other in my opinion in the past 2 decades than any other auto improvement. This has also made the cars Much heavier than they were. People also complain about finishes so the auto companies start making nicer interiors which also weigh more and by the time you are done that old lightweight car now weighs 600lbs heavier on the new model. Lets add in the Safety of AWD there is another 200+lbs but hey you want to be safe in bad weather right?

Under bely pans and many aero mods are in my opinion not safe for daily use. Why? 40 years ago it was tried and cars were getting lift off with heavyweight cars still lifting off at higher speeds. Personal experience here: 1968 Mustang I had 20 years ago 6cyl. was a nightmare driving home cause I lived on a barrier Island and I had to drive over a bridge to get home this 1.5 mile apx. 3 lane wide bridge had a drawbridge that was made out of metal grating when I drove over it on a windy day at 40mph. in a 45 mph zone the back end of the 3200lbs mustang would lift and slide out due to the updraft of wind imagine a belly pan. Plus radical Aero designs are not market friendly look at the backlash the 1st Gen Insight got when it was released people laughed at its shape and design even knowing the purpose of it.


Frank brought up the Ford F150 why is it a best seller? for 2 reasons Trucks are cool and trucks are Necessary. my brother owns a construction company and has 6 trucks several diesels which get pathetic mileage and a couple rack bodies along with a number of trailers. He purchases at least 1 truck a year because he needs them for many different purposes. I sold him my old 2002 Chevy S-10 as a estimate truck for his around the town trips better than driving a $55,000 6mpg diesel to give someone a price on a renovation.

MPG's are getting better finally and "Green" is Cool right now that is what will change the market nothing else. It was said already that whatever is cool sells. 10 years ago SUV's were cool couldn't see a person in Hollywood driving anything but a Hummer H2 now they all drive a Prius's sss ss s s or whatever the freakin plural of that car is.

Eco packages as an option may catch on for at least a while which is a great thing. Mainstreaming fuel economy and emissions as a responsible choice to purchase is the current trend and the Chevrolet Volt / Nissan Leaf / upcomming Focus and athe New Line of Buicks and cars for real average people like the New Buicks with E assist giving mid and full size cars 37mpg.

Buick LaCrosse eAssist | Future Vehicles, Future Cars, Concept Cars | Buick

Auto manufacturers are finally headed in the right direction. Will I buy New compared to used? well I am not an average person my poor choices in efficient cars is negated by the smart choice to use public transportation and only driving when necessary. As far as changing the minds of automakers they go with the trend if people continue to join groups like this and become educated what being more eco friendly can do for you then it is a start of a trend that may stay around for a while. We can't fix the world in a day it takes time and many small steps I am glad it has started.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Frank brought up the Ford F150 why is it a best seller? for 2 reasons Trucks are cool and trucks are Necessary. my brother owns a construction company and has 6 trucks...

Necessary? I don't think so: worked construction & logging jobs for years starting mid-70s. Drove a Toyota Stout, SR-5, and a Datsun pickup, all smaller than anything you can buy today. And for a couple of years when I was travelling a lot (I went around to different sites to fix up details after the main crew was done), I managed quite well with a Mazda RX3 wagon. So it's hardly necessary for every construction worker to drive something like an F-150 (which run empty 99% of the time).

As for cool, maybe it's something in the water.

[Arragonis]

Lets go for it, I'm off to bed until tomorrow - but hey

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Reading through this thread you see what every auto manufacturer wishes they could do but simply cannot.

In Europe you have a whole different set of needs than you do in North America. It really is apples and oranges and cannot compare them in the same terms. Why? Emissions / Safety / and use

I don't think this thread was meant for Europe alone. Why assume we want dirty cars, poor safety or low emissions standards ? Euro CAP is quite a hard test - many US SUVs (Jeeps are sold here) fail it or do really badly.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Lets start with diesel emissions... They pass in Europe but are considered too foul for NA (North America) Its pretty sad when the Mercedes-Benz ML350 Bluetec 4matic 6 cyl, 3.0 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel gets worse mileage than a Chevy Corvette.

Link please. Mind you the ML is pretty carp when it comes to mileage, so I don't doubt it. Not exactly comparing apples with apples is it though, the Corvette is deliberately made to be light for a sportscar, the ML a full size SUV.

How does the ML CDi do for mpg against a comparible (in size and price) US SUV?

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Diesel is finally starting to cleanup its act here but it still is far from being emission friendly.

We have >50% Diesel and no issues. I have tapped on issues with smog etc. You have to remember most of public transport (which is the emission worshipper's friend for cities) runs on Diesel.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Smaller engines are not always better not when people want 1 vehicle instead of 3.

I don't think this debate is about reducing 3 cars to 1. But if it is then the value of the car depends on usage. I have a friend in the US who owns a V10 pickup. I think its fine. Why ? He uses if for about 2K miles a year, and drags his boat out of the water and off to repair/service with it. He doesn't need it every day.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

I live in the state with the highest Auto insurance rates in the country for many years and $3,000 a year to insure your older Used car is not fun by any means. That is for a married couple who have not had any tickets or accidents in a couple decades of driving. Add a premium if you purchase a new car it can be mid $4k range with 3 cars with all of the safety discounts.

Not sure where this fits in. My parent's insurance goes down every year they don't claim as does mine and the Mrs.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Safety is a big reason to purchase new and they have leaped ahead in this department more so than any other in my opinion in the past 2 decades than any other auto improvement. This has also made the cars Much heavier than they were.

Agreed. We are not arguing against weight for safety. All this is of course linked to secondary safety - which is cages, airbags and so on. What about primary safety, i.e. not getting into accidents to begin with ? 99% of that is the bit between the seat and wheel though.

My avatar suggested carving knives across the interior "they will drive safely then". Seems fair

Originally Posted by NHRABill

People also complain about finishes so the auto companies start making nicer interiors which also weigh more and by the time you are done that old lightweight car now weighs 600lbs heavier on the new model.

I think 600lbs is a bit heavy for some silver plastic and a chrome gear shift if I'm honest. I think most of it went in the safety add ons.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Lets add in the Safety of AWD there is another 200+lbs but hey you want to be safe in bad weather right?

Sorry - bollocks - you don't need AWD to be safe. Most cars don't have it and manage fine. Vekke lives in Finland which is Icey cold last time I looked and his Vario (FWD hatch) seems fine.

During our 'unusual' snows in December I had to drive a friend to Glasgow airport to fly back to the US - with her moaning about how we couldn't cope - clue dear, we don't make inflatable roofs - and we made it fine in my wife's FWD estate car. The 4x4 Hilux in front of us did not though.

As I tapped. Bollocks.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Under bely pans and many aero mods are in my opinion not safe for daily use. Why? 40 years ago it was tried and cars were getting lift off with heavyweight cars still lifting off at higher speeds. Personal experience here: 1968 Mustang I had 20 years ago 6cyl. was a nightmare driving home cause I lived on a barrier Island and I had to drive over a bridge to get home this 1.5 mile apx. 3 lane wide bridge had a drawbridge that was made out of metal grating when I drove over it on a windy day at 40mph. in a 45 mph zone the back end of the 3200lbs mustang would lift and slide out due to the updraft of wind imagine a belly pan. Plus radical Aero designs are not market friendly look at the backlash the 1st Gen Insight got when it was released people laughed at its shape and design even knowing the purpose of it.

I think Aero has kind of moved on since 1968. They get the "aerofoil" shape of cars now.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Frank brought up the Ford F150 why is it a best seller? for 2 reasons Trucks are cool

Are there still people who need a car to be cool ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clOtqfSOWME

Originally Posted by NHRABill

and trucks are Necessary. my brother owns a construction company and has 6 trucks several diesels which get pathetic mileage and a couple rack bodies along with a number of trailers. He purchases at least 1 truck a year because he needs them for many different purposes. I sold him my old 2002 Chevy S-10 as a estimate truck for his around the town trips better than driving a $55,000 6mpg diesel to give someone a price on a renovation.

Yeah, but not everyone - in fact I suspect not enough people to make a truck the no.1 seller in the US work in construction. Or indeed in any job where they will use THEIR OWN VEHICLE for work. Parents of other kids at my son's school drive crew-cabs - they WORK IN A BANK! FFS!

I tapped earlier about 4x4 diesel crew-cabs but they do get much better mileage than an overweight Mercedes 'Gangsta Waggon' and have some practical use. And being Diesel they do better mileage than a S-10 could do, and pull loads better too - a 2.5 Diesel Turbo can have over 300 lb/ft, my 1.9 hatch has 270 lb/ft.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

MPG's are getting better finally and "Green" is Cool right now that is what will change the market nothing else.It was said already that whatever is cool sells. 10 years ago SUV's were cool couldn't see a person in Hollywood driving anything but a Hummer H2 now they all drive a Prius's sss ss s s or whatever the freakin plural of that car is.

Agreed - the Prius is sold here as a premium 'Green' car, its cheaper to buy one in the US and import it TBH.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Eco packages as an option may catch on for at least a while which is a great thing. Mainstreaming fuel economy and emissions as a responsible choice to purchase is the current trend and the Chevrolet Volt / Nissan Leaf / upcomming Focus and athe New Line of Buicks and cars for real average people like the New Buicks with E assist giving mid and full size cars 37mpg.

Buick LaCrosse eAssist | Future Vehicles, Future Cars, Concept Cars | Buick

Auto manufacturers are finally headed in the right direction. Will I buy New compared to used? well I am not an average person my poor choices in efficient cars is negated by the smart choice to use public transportation and only driving when necessary. As far as changing the minds of automakers they go with the trend if people continue to join groups like this and become educated what being more eco friendly can do for you then it is a start of a trend that may stay around for a while. We can't fix the world in a day it takes time and many small steps I am glad it has started.

I think think are headed in the same direction on this last bit. You CAN get a full size truck / car to get reasonable MPG with some assistance but you can get a population and therefore car makers to get into this more with some persistance.

I think we have the same idea, maybe different approaches and motivations.



I think if people really deep down looked hard at their car usage - and not not every trip is a car one - they would see the folly in what they do now.

[Frank Lee]

Too bad I can't screen grab this Chevy Cruze ad; it says

AVAILABLE REMOTE START FROM YOUR PHONE. YEP, IT'S AS CRAZY AS IT SOUNDS

So they spent millions to improve the fe on it, then put in a device that allows it to sit there running with nobody in it. They should say in their propaganda about it, next to where they state the mpg ratings, that idling gets 0 mpg.

[NHRABill]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Necessary? I don't think so: worked construction & logging jobs for years starting mid-70s. Drove a Toyota Stout, SR-5, and a Datsun pickup, all smaller than anything you can buy today. And for a couple of years when I was travelling a lot (I went around to different sites to fix up details after the main crew was done), I managed quite well with a Mazda RX3 wagon. So it's hardly necessary for every construction worker to drive something like an F-150 (which run empty 99% of the time).

As for cool, maybe it's something in the water.

Don't think a Datsun or a Toyota can pull a 20 ft' trailer with 9,000lbs. in the back + the additional trailer weight to boot My Tahoe couldn't do it without major damage. Of course EVERY person doesn't need a truck but it is a necessary evil of many peoples professions. It would be ridiculous for me to sit here and try and explain why a pickup is a best seller, It just is. Do I own one? No, because I do not need one I have a trailer I will pull when it is necessary.

It has been discussed many times in here that a person should drive what fits their lifestyle of course a soccer mom does not need a duramax diesel Dodge dually (say that 5 times fast) I was attempting to stay on the topic by discussing the key points that people use to justify a poor choice in using a vehicle. I used my brothers business the Construction worker as an example to illustrate that some people DO need large trucks for real work. I am not looking for an argument just stating my opinion. No One likes to drive around in a Gas guzzler truck in traffic getting 9mpg when the price of diesel continues to climb.

The reference to "Cool" has to do with the image of tough ruggedness the advertisers shove down our throats. people throughout the world are stupid and buy into it regardless of location

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpI0q52wHxg

I will get to the other comment later when i have more time got to get to the train.

[user removed]

Personally I think there is an agenda we may not be aware of. It really would not take much to make the present models significantly more efficient as has been mentioned in prior posts.

To make a dramatic step in increasing efficiency could have adverse effects on the existing vehicle population and its overall value. Consider the consequences of a cheap high mileage car that could be purchased for 15k or under new. Lets say it could average 40 city and 50 highway, well within the potential with better gearing, aero, direct injection, forced induction, start-stop, and rolling resistance improvements.

So what happens to the 30k hybrid when you can buy the same mileage for half price. The market collapses. The same holds true for all the rest of the current models of vehicles, if the manufacturers shot themselves in the foot and really made a high mileage car. You can see this when they "brag" about 30 mpg or 34 mpg, like it was some fantastic revelation that a car can actually get that kind of mileage. It's almost as ridiculous as politics these days. they wouldn't know the truth if it hit them right between the eyes.

Having driven cars that are practical and capable of AVERAGING 60 mpg at 60 mph average speeds (and even better) I guess the manufacturers must think I am incapable of a decent memory or rational judgement. I should be in awe of the 30 mpg highway new car.

I think I just have to wait for them to do something impressive and keep driving my recycled rejects from the scrap heap. When they get it right I might even go down there and buy a new car, write a check for it and drive off, but I doubt it, when you can find one smashed within weeks of it being first sold to the public.

regards
Mech

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

You have to remember most of public transport (which is the emission worshipper's friend for cities) runs on Diesel.

But if you've ever spent much time biking along behind a diesel bus, you'll realize that however emission-friendly mass transit may be in the aggregate, the individual busses are pretty darn dirty.

One good thing about a number of European cities, though, is that in the more densely-populated parts, the busses are often electric.

Sorry - bollocks - you don't need AWD to be safe. Most cars don't have it and manage fine. Vekke lives in Finland which is Icey cold last time I looked and his Vario (FWD hatch) seems fine.

Finland, however, is pretty darned flat. AWD/4WD really helps in the mountains - or in places like Yorkshire, where most of the roads seem to have been engineered by sheep :-)