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Old 09-17-2018, 12:37 PM   #151 (permalink)
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I'm assuming nobody would give it to you because you have no history of taking high risks and making hugely successful businesses. Musk worked his way into great financial standing partly by good fortune, and partly by being brilliant and risk tolerant (also great fortune, as everything is). Tesla isn't a pet project for Musk; it's his passion. Same with Space X. He didn't just have a whimsical idea one night and get loose with the pocketbook; he's been obsessing about these ideas since his youth.
The funny thing is that Musk doesn't have a history of making hugely successful businesses either. His big claim to fame is PayPal. Except Musk didn't create PayPal or turn it into a success. Musk was a co-founder of X.com. It merged with another online payment company called Confinity. The CEO of Confinity became CEO of the newly created PayPal. It was that man that shepherded the company from a start-up to IPO and then facilitated the sale to EBay. Musk remained a large shareholder and made a fortune on the sale of PayPal but he wasn't the guy running the company.

Musk is an ideas guy not an operations guy that takes the idea and turns it into a profitable business. His mismanagement of Tesla continues to prove this day after day.

None of Musk's companies since X.com has been successfully if you use the standard business definition of success - making money for shareholders.


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I certainly never said Musk is "betting it all" on Tesla, so I hope you aren't implying that I was. However, he did bet a large fortune on a number of things, and some are bound to fail. That's what entrepreneurs do. They fail often and move on. If your expectation is that entrepreneurs make 100% perfect decisions, you don't understand being human at all.
You did not say Musk is "betting it all"; that was hamsterpower. Which is why I pointed out to hamsterpower that Musk is betting with other people money. Which is a pretty fair statement when Musk has put in less then 1% of the capital invested in Tesla.

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Old 09-17-2018, 01:04 PM   #152 (permalink)
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The funny thing is that Musk doesn't have a history of making hugely successful businesses either. His big claim to fame is PayPal. Except Musk didn't create PayPal or turn it into a success.
You're still determined to undermine his success for no clearly obvious reason to me other than you dislike successful people, or at least dislike successful people that behave like Musk. He started a company with his brother called Zip2 on a $28,000 startup budget and sold the company for $307,000,000, pocketing $22,000,000. He was already rich as he co-founded a company that was integral to Paypal.

Most people that come across $22M would instantly become couch potatoes and squander their wealth on extravagance. After Musk made $180M from the sale of Paypal, he invested most of that into his businesses, placing nearly all of his fortune at risk of loss. He could have just bought a yacht and sailed the world the rest of his life, as most Americans would.

So rather than continue to speculate why you wish to misrepresent Musk, and seem to despise the guy, I'll eagerly await your own reasons for misrepresenting him and downplaying his impact on the world.

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Musk is an ideas guy not an operations guy that takes the idea and turns it into a profitable business. His mismanagement of Tesla continues to prove this day after day.

None of Musk's companies since X.com has been successfully if you use the standard business definition of success - making money for shareholders.
Agreed. His need to micromanage his ideas are one of his weaknesses. Though he's likely a brilliant guy, that overconfidence in his own abilities doesn't allow him to trust control with others who are expert in their respective fields. *Entirely my speculation having not researched Musk in depth.

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You did not say Musk is "betting it all"; that was hamsterpower. Which is why I pointed out to hamsterpower that Musk is betting with other people money. Which is a pretty fair statement when Musk has put in less then 1% of the capital invested in Tesla.
You don't measure the bet based on everyone else's cumulative bet. If you spent nearly all of your wealth on lottery tickets, and that represented an infinitely small portion of the overall lottery ticket purchases, it would still be true that you're nearly all in. While "betting it all" is not exactly accurate, he bet the vast majority of his personal fortune on his ideas, which gives some credibility as to his passion and belief in those ventures.

Everyone else voluntarily placed their bets too. Investor beware. The potential for high gain often comes with the potential of great loss.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:54 PM   #153 (permalink)
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You're still determined to undermine his success for no clearly obvious reason to me other than you dislike successful people, or at least dislike successful people that behave like Musk. He started a company with his brother called Zip2 on a $28,000 startup budget and sold the company for $307,000,000, pocketing $22,000,000. He was already rich as he co-founded a company that was integral to Paypal.
OK, so he successfully ran 1 company. Good for him. That doesn't make him a business genius. I don't have anything against successful people, I just haven't fallen into the cult of Musk. The future of EVs doesn't rest on his shoulders and they will do fine whether Tesla succeeds of fails.

His behavior also doesn't help. Pretty much everyone agrees he is a self-absorbed jerk. Some forgive those basic character flaws because he is CEO of a company they want to succeed. I'm not one of them. The man is a jerk and he is dragging down Tesla. Maybe it is time for him to sail off on a yacht and let professionals try to save his company.


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Agreed. His need to micromanage his ideas are one of his weaknesses. Though he's likely a brilliant guy, that overconfidence in his own abilities doesn't allow him to trust control with others who are expert in their respective fields. *Entirely my speculation having not researched Musk in depth.
SpaceX is a good example of what could be possible for Tesla if Musk would step away. SpaceX has had an experience president and COO for years that directs the day to day operations of company. Musk basically said "wouldn't it be great if you could make a reusable rocket" then he hired some rocket engineers and executives and told them to get to it. That hands-off approach has allowed SpaceX to be a technical success even if they aren't profitable yet. Time will tell if Musk can continue to keep his hands off SpaceX or if he kills the company by forcing it to pursue his Mars colony idea.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:17 PM   #154 (permalink)
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I found it inspiring, as did millions of others.
You're welcome to your opinion. I found it utterly disgusting. If he couldn't have launched some useful exploration mission, the least he could have done is to have given the car away to someone who'd appreciate it. Or FTM keep driving it...
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #155 (permalink)
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The car was obviously a PT barnum style distraction and there was a second pay load.
The best time to do it is when everyone is watching.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:17 PM   #156 (permalink)
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OK, so he successfully ran 1 company. Good for him. That doesn't make him a business genius. I don't have anything against successful people, I just haven't fallen into the cult of Musk.
The trick is he's not trying to be a 'business' genius. He's using business as a tool to a higher end. Starlink hasn't even come online yet.

Elon Musk, SpaceX's Internet Satellite Company Has A Name, Logo

Shotwell has his back:

SpaceX president says Elon Musk is 'as lucid and capable' as ever — report

His stunt increased the value of every Roadster remaining in the auction market.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:37 PM   #157 (permalink)
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OK, so he successfully ran 1 company. Good for him. That doesn't make him a business genius. I don't have anything against successful people, I just haven't fallen into the cult of Musk. The future of EVs doesn't rest on his shoulders and they will do fine whether Tesla succeeds of fails.
Just to be clear, I've never claimed he was a business genius (my claim of genius is in a general sense) or claimed to be a fan, though I do find him interesting and inspiring (and a jerk). You've got a point about the cult-like following of Musk, but they are the harmless variety. They aren't drinking special CoolAid even if their hopes and dreams are placed on less than stable ground.

Nothing has ever rested on the shoulders of any single individual. We didn't need Einstein to figure things out, as someone was bound to make his discoveries shortly after, anyhow. We didn't need Isaac Newton, Galileo, or anyone else. They were merely the first to make major discoveries, not the only capable ones.

Besides all that, Musk never claimed to be the EV messiah. From the beginning his mission statement was to accelerate the rate at which EVs are developed and brought into mainstream; an end to which he seems to have accomplished.

OK, so we shouldn't be inspired by people because their discoveries were inevitable. What do you propose, we all mope about living out our fatalistic lives? Why even bother?

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His behavior also doesn't help. Pretty much everyone agrees he is a self-absorbed jerk. Some forgive those basic character flaws because he is CEO of a company they want to succeed. I'm not one of them. The man is a jerk and he is dragging down Tesla. Maybe it is time for him to sail off on a yacht and let professionals try to save his company.
Tesla doesn't exist without Musk. Nobody else could have done it when he did, and the evidence is that nobody did do what he did. As I've said, we basically have Tesla because of Musks positive and negative traits. That's no excuse for poor behavior, but he can help himself as much as anyone else, which is to say not at all. What else can explain his behavior besides genetics and environment, neither of which he chose?

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You're welcome to your opinion. I found it utterly disgusting. If he couldn't have launched some useful exploration mission, the least he could have done is to have given the car away to someone who'd appreciate it. Or FTM keep driving it...
Yeah, but then what is useful? Was Sputnik useful? Is GPS useful? I mean, we don't need GPS to live. Is the Statue of Liberty useful? Are non-productive members of society useful?

There are plenty of things that serve no apparent need, or are used in a manner not consistent with their design, yet still inspire. People need inspiration as much as they need oxygen; it's just a less immediate need.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:13 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Tesla doesn't exist without Musk. Nobody else could have done it when he did, when he did it, and the evidence is that nobody did do what he did.
Quote For Truth — QFT
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:15 AM   #159 (permalink)
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People need inspiration as much as they need oxygen...
I certainly don't disagree, but that misses the point, which for me - and I think perhaps a lot of people - it was anti-inspiring. Just another billionaire wasting money to show off how rich he is. Basically the high-tech equivalent to lighting your cigars with $100 bills.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:02 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Where is this Japanese billionaire going to find 6-8 artists willing to strap themselves into the first BFR?

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