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Old 07-05-2016, 05:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Yeah, well again the idea was that a fraction of HHO seeding improves the combustion speed by way more than its own percentage; or it would result in a more complete combustion; both effects can potentially yield more power.

Whatever happens, in an unmodified engine there are no real gains to be had.
It could be that the ECU needs remapping (which is worth investigating IMO).
it could be that the effect does not work as envisioned.
It could be that the effect is there but not operating controllably, destabilizing the combustion process. forcing the ECU to use a safe mode or such.
Maybe it just needs some tweak to get working fine.

It is these uncertainties that need addressing.
Most of all the idea that a little bit of HHO has a disproportionally large effect on the combustion speed or quality, as that is the extraordinary claim that needs extraordinary proof.
If there is no hope of that ever happening, and no physical proof of concept like an ABA test appears, then it is not unreasonable to relegate it to where we keep the stuff of fairy tales.

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Old 07-05-2016, 06:57 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Perhaps it would be productive to start another thread that is specific to modifying the combustion mix (hydrogen would be one of many possibilities) and let this one die in the corral?
 
Old 07-05-2016, 07:02 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
It is these uncertainties that need addressing.
Most of all the idea that a little bit of HHO has a disproportionally large effect on the combustion speed or quality, as that is the extraordinary claim that needs extraordinary proof.
If there is no hope of that ever happening, and no physical proof of concept like an ABA test appears, then it is not unreasonable to relegate it to where we keep the stuff of fairy tales.
I too find it funny that a mod that can be turned on and off with a switch is impossible to ABA test.
What I gather from the HHO believers it sounds like the HHO destabilizes the combustion in gasoline engines. The same effect can be had by adding diesel to gasoline lowing its "octane value" or raising an engines compression ratio.
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:16 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I too find it funny that a mod that can be turned on and off with a switch is impossible to ABA test.
And I find it funny that, while the HHO true believers refuse to build a system and ABA test it with data according to the principles published on this forum: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html, they are perfectly willing to (loudly) insist that HHO is a miracle solution. As long as that solution is implemented by somebody else and without ABA testing.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:30 AM   #65 (permalink)
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If HHO would not make a difference without an ECU tune, how would you know the tune itself would not be responsible for the entire difference?
 
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Old 07-06-2016, 02:36 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
If HHO would not make a difference without an ECU tune, how would you know the tune itself would not be responsible for the entire difference?
Ehm, by ABA testing the tuned ECM with HHO and without?
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:16 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I have done ABA testing, on dynos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMichler View Post
And I find it funny that, while the HHO true believers refuse to build a system and ABA test it with data according to the principles published on this forum: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html, they are perfectly willing to (loudly) insist that HHO is a miracle solution. As long as that solution is implemented by somebody else and without ABA testing.
I've mentioned it before on similar threads. The results range from -2% loss, to nothing to +9% gain. This is for a variety of gasoline engines from the 80s and 90s era. I trust the Superflow technicians who helped with the tests knew their stuff. Diesels of early mechanical designs showed up to a 15% gain in thermal efficiency. There are numerous companies using HHO generators in tractor trailers with some success. Walmart has had units in use for the last few years. I highly doubt a unit that does nothing for economy would continue in use by a company that values every penny.
 
Old 07-14-2016, 03:22 PM   #68 (permalink)
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This is being done in HCCI research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I too find it funny that a mod that can be turned on and off with a switch is impossible to ABA test.
What I gather from the HHO believers it sounds like the HHO destabilizes the combustion in gasoline engines. The same effect can be had by adding diesel to gasoline lowing its "octane value" or raising an engines compression ratio.
It is incorrect to call it a destabilization of combustion. It just changes the reactivity profile of the combustion mix.

The problem with mixing diesel into your gasoline is that you are now stuck with a mix optimized to a narrow load range. This is why HCCI is using dual fueling systems to widen the running range.

HHO cannot hope to affect combustion as much as a few percent addition of diesel into the gasoline mix. But, under certain circumstances, it can help to the tune of a few percent gain in thermal efficiency.
 
Old 07-14-2016, 03:36 PM   #69 (permalink)
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In summary, ChazinMT is right.

Even if HHO can affect combustion, can it be produced economically enough to see a net gain?

There is more than one effect going with HHO and this is part of the problem.

Hydrogen seeding we have touched on.

Ozone seeding we have mentioned.

The steam produced and introduced into the combustion chamber is another.
 
Old 07-14-2016, 03:44 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Lean burn is where HHO can be most effective for the DIY guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
If HHO would not make a difference without an ECU tune, how would you know the tune itself would not be responsible for the entire difference?
I mentioned in another thread that I had a 1990 Daihatsu CB90 engine ( 1 L ) running at 28:1 AFR ( limits of the Innovate wide-band we used ). It could not run smoothly at 22:1 AFR. It was not designed for lean-burn like some Hondas. Also, we could not dial in enough ignition lead to produce usable torque at that AFR. Misfires and bogging occurred. The addition off HHO allowed smooth running with reduced ignition lead and minimal throttle use all the way up to 28:1 AFR. At that AFR, if you turn off the HHO, the engine dies.

 
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