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Old 07-08-2014, 01:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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So one is driving in the middle of nowhere, and the battery dies.

Super long extension cord, or carry a battery-tank to take somewhere and fill up, to get more rang to take it somewhere. Of course [I hope] more people are smarter than this, I am just imagining some people in the middle of the desert, Hills Have Eyes style, being stranded.

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Old 07-13-2014, 09:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Do you watch your gas gauge? You won't "suddenly" lose the battery, in an EV, either.

Here's how Tesla can build the Model E (or whatever it gets called):

The same way that the Illuminati Motor Works '7' goes 220+ miles on a 33kWh pack at 60-70mph on flat-ish ground in low wind, and it uses just ~129Wh/mile:

Low aero drag, free wheel coasting (with regen only when the driver needs it) and improved wall-to-wheel efficiency. The '7' has an AC synchronous motor, so no permanent magnets dragging when you coast. It loses just ~8% vs the ~15% for typical EV's, because it uses no BMS. They bottom balanced the pack (99 CALB 100Ah cells) instead. Much less heat during charging - less heat means less energy lost.

I cannot stress enough about free wheel coasting - the kinetic energy you "invested" in when the car accelerates is used most effectively to - wait for it - move the car forward. Aero drag is the only loss, and you get that all the time anyway.

Use regen only when you need to slow the car. The result is significantly less acceleration, and much less regen is needed to used - so the losses of regen are avoided.

Weight is less of a penalty for EV's for several reasons: electric motors are far more efficient, and so the losses to accelerate the mass is much lower than in an ICE. ICEs are terrible efficiency during acceleration, and even at their peak, when cruising at a steady speed, they are still losing ~3X more energy than an EV does.

Secondly, when coasting, an EV has no consumption. As I mentioned, an AC synchronous motor is better at this than a motor with permanent magnets.

With regen (as needed) that is two ways that the energy "invested" in accelerating the mass of the car (kinetic energy) is regained.

Aero drag is always a *total* loss.

At 30MPH typical cars are losing HALF the energy to aero drag. At 55MPH, they lose 75%, and at higher speeds it quickly goes up to 85-90%.

If the drivetrain is already losing ~75% then those two things are *by far* the most important factors to moving the car forward on as little energy as possible. If the EV drive train is losing 15% then that is a lot better, but if it is only losing ~8%, then that is better still.

Low aero drag is a virtuous circle: low consumption goes much farther on a smaller battery, which both weighs less and costs less, and takes up less room in the chassis.

Other ways to lower consumption are to have "thin" but ergonomic seats. They are perfectly comfortable (if designed right) and they weigh less and take up less room, so you either get a roomier interior and/or the car can be smaller. So, it weighs less and costs less.

Thermal insulation in the chassis, means that (like in a building) the temperature inside the car is more stable without adding energy to either heat or cool it.

All EVs should have direct heating electric defrosters. These take a fraction of the energy and they work very quickly. Like heated seats, by heating the important bits directly, you save a *lot* of energy in the winter.

Heat pumps are becoming common in EVs. Other things to do are use well located air intakes and exhaust vents to passively move air through the vehicle.

I have every confidence that Tesla (and maybe Nissan, and Kia, and VW, and Mitsubishi, and BMW, and Mercedes - and possibly even GM!) can build a ground up EV that takes full advantage of good engineering - that they can sell us a 200+ mile EV for the $30-40K that seems to be the sweet spot. And we should be able to get 125-160 mile EV's for less, as well.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't doubt that it can be done. In fact I'm quite sure that well be seeing one very soon. But I don't know that there will be enough of a market for them to attract the larger manufacturers. Every time I have a conversation about electric cars I hear the same 2 things no matter who I'm talking to 1 they're too expensive right now 2 not having to pay for gas is great but I don't want to have to wait hours to recharge my car.

So I think until there is a faster way to recharge or if tesla get the battery exchange program they were talking about a few months ago going, electric cars will remain a niche market until something better comes along. (Toyota FCV anyone?)
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Old 07-13-2014, 11:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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So I think until there is a faster way to recharge or if tesla get the battery exchange program they were talking about a few months ago going, electric cars will remain a niche market until something better comes along. (Toyota FCV anyone?)
How is 300 miles per hour of charge not fast enough? An inconvenience on a road trip, maybe, but fossil fuelled road trips are luxuries that we may no longer have once the wells dry up.
Lots of people have road tripped their Model S from LA to NYC. For free.
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Old 07-13-2014, 11:50 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I think most companies will find its cheaper to hand over the ev market to tesla and buy credits than produce them at a loss ( especially the closer it gets to 2025). If so, economies of scale should help make this model a possibility. Its in California's best interest to help this along since they'll be made there.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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How is 300 miles per hour of charge not fast enough? An inconvenience on a road trip, maybe, but fossil fuelled road trips are luxuries that we may no longer have once the wells dry up.
Lots of people have road tripped their Model S from LA to NYC. For free.
It's not fast enough because the general public is used to 5 minutes for the same range or more. I'm just saying that's what I hear from people I talk to who don't think the same way as someone on this website. They don't care about gas mileage if they're getting close to EPA ratings and they aren't worried about emissions. All they see is the required charge time I think about worse case scenarios.
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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A lot of people don't know much about EV's, and when they only hear about the "problems" they are not swayed. But once people drive an EV, and when they find out how low cost they are to drive, and that they can offset their driving costs by generating electricity on their home's roof, they will realize that looking past the differences, you gain some huge advantages.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I wouldn't mind a 200 mile range if there was a good enough Supercharger network to support me on long trips. By the end of 2015, Tesla is projecting that they would have continental US pretty well blanketed. Charging shouldn't add too much time to a road trip when you consider that you already have to stop to fuel up, eat, and use the restroom.
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:25 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
I have every confidence that Tesla (and maybe Nissan, and Kia, and VW, and Mitsubishi, and BMW, and Mercedes - and possibly even GM!) can build a ground up EV that takes full advantage of good engineering - that they can sell us a 200+ mile EV for the $30-40K that seems to be the sweet spot. And we should be able to get 125-160 mile EV's for less, as well.
I don't think Tesla is interested in making a hyper efficient electric car. It seems their game plan is to have a conventional box car, and just try to drop the cost of batteries so much that stuffing a 60kwh+ pack becomes affordable.

A Nissan leaf pack in an EV1 would have a 145 mile range, compared to the 84mile range for the latest Leafs. You would think that alone woould get the Automakers to understand the "big picture." More range from a smaller less costly battery would sell better!
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:36 AM   #30 (permalink)
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...shouldn't add too much time to a road trip when you consider that you already have to stop to fuel up, eat, and use the restroom.
WHAT?

Now I don't exceed 60 MPH unless gravity is the cause, but I also don't stop. Usually I travel after a shift and go for 5-8 hours, until I get a tad tired and then sleep until the sun puts me back on my way.

An EV would NOT work for me, for traveling. But if an EV worked for my lifestyle, then renting a petrol car would also suffice for these trips.

-

Neil, I agree. I know exactly where my fuel gauges are (3/16ths on the Stang, 19/20ths on the Insight)- but most people do not. Most people go until the light comes on. Even with the light, a lot of people don't stop.

When my Mustang light comes on, it tells me there are 50 miles left. When I go those 50 miles, then 50 more miles, I have a gallon or two left. When my Insight told me the tank was 100% empty, it took 9 and change [gallons] out of 14.

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